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Snobbery Helped Take the Spice Out of European Cooking (2015)

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Re: Snobbery Helped Take the Spice Out of European Cooking (2015)

#41
post #9

In Italy we say: "A lot of spices are to cover the taste of bad ingredients". It means that if you use a lot of spices ( we _usually_ use only black pepper and salt ), you are going to cover the taste of the ingredients you are using, we believe that you need to use good ingredients to have flavourful recipes, if an ingredient tastes bad you shouldn't use it. Also we always search for the balance, there shouldn't be…

Quoted post unavailable.

You are so wrong I do not even know where to start. But because I was the most offended about the spanish comments I will start there.

> The former only recently being in vogue because of the work Ferran Adria.

That is not true, Spain has many regions with formidable chefs. But for example the Basque country is one of the areas of the world with most Michelin Stars per square mile, comparable to Tokyo, New York etc. Basque cuisine is almost exclusively based on simple ingredients done well.

The fact you are so supremely uneducated about something so well known means the rest of the comment can be taken with a pinch of salt, no pun intended.

Japanese food has minimalist traditions but it also has it hotpot of "add it all together" common recipes which are all fantastic.

> mistaking culinary acceptance as desirable inclusiveness.

I am european, your comment is just misinformed and wrong. It is not even down to opinion, you are factually wrong and incredibly self confident based on meeting one Indian guy at work.

> Is it snobbery

Yes, and the worst kind. I say this as a snob myself. I save up to eat at great restaurants and go far off the trail for certain food experiences. But I have eaten in the worst joints in Sichuan with incredibly spicy food, and delicious traditional Pakistani curries and neither has ruined my palette to eat Sous vide sirloin with crystal salt

Re: Snobbery Helped Take the Spice Out of European Cooking (2015)

#42
post #9

In Italy we say: "A lot of spices are to cover the taste of bad ingredients". It means that if you use a lot of spices ( we _usually_ use only black pepper and salt ), you are going to cover the taste of the ingredients you are using, we believe that you need to use good ingredients to have flavourful recipes, if an ingredient tastes bad you shouldn't use it. Also we always search for the balance, there shouldn't be…

Quoted post unavailable.

If you were trying to be diplomatic you wouldn't have included the word "woke".

Different people like different things for different reasons.

> refusal to follow this norm

That's why it's called a norm, not a universal law.

(Random personal anecdote: I last visited San Francisco a long time ago, in the early 2000s, but as a Brit it seemed to me that there were hardly any Indian restaurants compared to what I was used to. Of course, British-Indian cuisine is a laundered version of Indian cuisine itself .. and the restaurants are more likely to be run by Bangladeshis. What is authenticity, really?)

Re: Snobbery Helped Take the Spice Out of European Cooking (2015)

#43
post #9

In Italy we say: "A lot of spices are to cover the taste of bad ingredients". It means that if you use a lot of spices ( we _usually_ use only black pepper and salt ), you are going to cover the taste of the ingredients you are using, we believe that you need to use good ingredients to have flavourful recipes, if an ingredient tastes bad you shouldn't use it. Also we always search for the balance, there shouldn't be…

I'm Indian, and some of the most amusing conversations I've had about food have been with Italians. An Italian professor was insistent that I stand up and defend the need for Indian food to use a million spices. He was proud of the fact that delicious Italian food could be whipped up using just three ingredients. I was in full agreement with him, that Italian food was wonderful, and that it was commendable how far th…

This is food-as-fandom, isn't it? It's not enough to enjoy your own tastes, you have to get out there and tell people that your taste is superior to theirs. You can see it playing out even in this thread.

Re: Snobbery Helped Take the Spice Out of European Cooking (2015)

#44
post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> One of my sous chefs dated an Indian women and despite being a blond, blue eyed German/Polish mixed male from the midwest he was the most vociferous about for Indian cuisine I have ever met, even Indians Why would somebody's hair/eye color matter when it comes to their culinary preferences?

> Why would somebody's hair/eye color matter when it comes to their culinary preferences? It's often cultural guilt, in my experience. The most non-Indian person often feels compelled to be the loudest voice in some sort of over-compensation for acceptance amongst those he seeks validation from. Food is seriously the most political thing in existence,. Also, I don't think St. Louis, where he was from, was exactly a b…

"It couldn't possibly be that someone genuinely likes the flavors, aromas, textures, and diversity of a cuisine. No, it's cultural guilt."

Saying 'food is political' doesn't mean anything. Of course it's 'political', just as all art is 'political'. But it would be ridiculous to suggest that I like rock music because I have 'cultural guilt', or because I'm 'over-compensating' - as if I'm trying hard to like it so I'm "woke".

All your comments in this thread have a serious lack of foundation. As it turns out, people generally just find Indian food either tasty (usually on account of the spices, salt, and oil - like most food) or convenient (for vegetarians or vegans). You can read as much as you like into it, but at this point you're just making guesses and shoe-horning it into the culture war topic de jour.

Re: Snobbery Helped Take the Spice Out of European Cooking (2015)

#45
post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have had similar conversations with Italians about food or coffee. They're very passionate about both and - at least when it comes to coffee - will also get into heated discussions over it with other Italians, not just foreigners. I think it's just the culture.

I'm Spanish, not Italian, but we also talk quite loud. Maybe all discussions look heated to foreigners.

Italian discussions literally look very heated to, say, Northern Europeans, due to the very animated body language.

Re: Snobbery Helped Take the Spice Out of European Cooking (2015)

#46
post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> One of my sous chefs dated an Indian women and despite being a blond, blue eyed German/Polish mixed male from the midwest he was the most vociferous about for Indian cuisine I have ever met, even Indians Why would somebody's hair/eye color matter when it comes to their culinary preferences?

> Why would somebody's hair/eye color matter when it comes to their culinary preferences? It's often cultural guilt, in my experience. The most non-Indian person often feels compelled to be the loudest voice in some sort of over-compensation for acceptance amongst those he seeks validation from. Food is seriously the most political thing in existence,. Also, I don't think St. Louis, where he was from, was exactly a b…

> The most non-Indian person often feels compelled to be the loudest voice in some sort of over-compensation for acceptance amongst those he seeks validation from.

from a previous comment:

> Whereas in Italian and Japanese cuisine (both being my repertoire) a greater emphasis is in exalting humble ingredients with skill, prep and elaboration and an emphasis and an eye for in-season quality and utilizing them in smaller portions than other countries...

We're all entitled to opinions about things, especially something as subjective as food. But this sounds a lot like the pot calling the kettle black to me.

Re: Snobbery Helped Take the Spice Out of European Cooking (2015)

#47
post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Quoted post unavailable.

If you were trying to be diplomatic you wouldn't have included the word "woke". Different people like different things for different reasons . > refusal to follow this norm That's why it's called a norm, not a universal law. (Random personal anecdote: I last visited San Francisco a long time ago, in the early 2000s, but as a Brit it seemed to me that there were hardly any Indian restaurants compared to what I was use…

> (Random personal anecdote: I last visited San Francisco a long time ago, in the early 2000s, but as a Brit it seemed to me that there were hardly any Indian restaurants compared to what I was used to. Of course, British-Indian cuisine is a laundered version of Indian cuisine itself .. and the restaurants are more likely to be run by Bangladeshis. What is authenticity, really?)

It seems to have gotten much better since – I've been in San Francisco these past two years and have had some really good Indian food. I had an amazing tasting menu at a restaurant called August 1 Five (that unfortunately seems to have closed during the pandemic) with things that I've only had in India (like panipuri.)

Re: Snobbery Helped Take the Spice Out of European Cooking (2015)

#48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Quoted post unavailable.

You are so wrong I do not even know where to start. But because I was the most offended about the spanish comments I will start there. > The former only recently being in vogue because of the work Ferran Adria. That is not true, Spain has many regions with formidable chefs. But for example the Basque country is one of the areas of the world with most Michelin Stars per square mile, comparable to Tokyo, New York etc.…

> That is not true, Spain has many regions with formidable chefs. But for example the Basque country is one of the areas of the world with most Michelin Stars per square mile, comparable to Tokyo, New York etc. Basque cuisine is almost exclusively based on simple ingredients done well.

I never said nothing else existed before him, I just said Spanish cuisine became in vogue because of Ferran. That's undeiable, he put so many on the map, who had actually been doing things before Feran even took over El Bulgi, and kitchens in Basque Country were one of many examples.

My family is from Valencia and I did my summers there in my youth, I don't need to be 'schooled' on it's eclectic and highly regarded diverse cuisine. I just restated my views of how non-culinary people viewed Spanish and Italian cuisine below French.

I'm just saying go find someone not in the Industry or a devout foodie (before the internet no less) who knows about the intricacies of Asturian/Gallecian cuisine vs Catalan and then compare that to how lined up to work for free at El Bulgi.

My friend and cook moved from Brazil, then went to France and then to Andalucia and worked for nothing to be at El Bulgi Hotel... this is the power of marketing, none of which was found in Pais Basco for most where they had been serving some of the the best seafood for millenia. Nor was any of its offerings known outside of foodie circles; did all of that exist before Ferran? Of course, but I'm saying it wasn't well known until Ferran's avant garde cusinese made the masses pay attention to Spanish cuisine.

> The fact you are so supremely uneducated about something so well known means the rest of the comment can be taken with a pinch of salt, no pun intended.

Again, you can draw whatever conclusion you want from my comment, but I still don't see anything but conjecture on your part. Moreover, I'd ask what have you done in this Industry to speak with such an arrogant tone? I told you what I did, and why I have the opinion (key word here is opinion) that I do.

> Japanese food has minimalist traditions but it also has it hotpot of "add it all together" common recipes which are all fantastic.

Nabemono. And yes, that is true but have you ever made one?

It's a staple in my home: and its made from simple dashi with often small amounts of protein cooked in shabu-shabu manner with seasonal vegetables and often tofu and maybe noodles in some cases, how does that that detract from what I said about being in line with what I said?

Japanese cuisine is about subtlety and refined contrast between its flavours and maintaining textures. It's a fine balance of both. Bombarding you with immeasurable flavour is a very Kansai (specifically Osaka) thing but that's limited to street food, which is actually really good, too. And matches it's work hard, and party harder drinking culture.

But something like nabemono has nothing to do with that.

Again, I'm failing to see what YOU are actual rebuttaling against here other than your own conjecture.

> I save up to eat at great restaurants and go far off the trail for certain food experiences...

Awesome, and I can tell you fancy yourself as something of a foodie, but that doesn't mean you know anything of how food is or should be prepared and served best--do you study harvest dates for certain vegetable and fruit cultivars or trialed slaughter periods/season of livestock? I have, that was part of my farming apprenticeship. I used that experience in my culinary career, often to deaf ears which is why I focused on farm to tables.

There is something off-putting about what amounts to a client telling a cook about how something should be made, and then calling them supremely uneducated, don't you think?

Re: Snobbery Helped Take the Spice Out of European Cooking (2015)

#49
"Snobbery" is an incantation We speak to get a seretonin boost in the presence of people or groups that cause our seretonin levels to drop.

It is one of many tools that can be used to attack or diminish those who are seen to have higher status than Us.

Re: Snobbery Helped Take the Spice Out of European Cooking (2015)

#50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm Indian, and some of the most amusing conversations I've had about food have been with Italians. An Italian professor was insistent that I stand up and defend the need for Indian food to use a million spices. He was proud of the fact that delicious Italian food could be whipped up using just three ingredients. I was in full agreement with him, that Italian food was wonderful, and that it was commendable how far th…

> An Italian friend was aghast that I would suggest putting Onion and Garlic in the same meal. It was strictly either/or for him. That's a new one for me. No mixing of the two? Surely the very basis of a good tomato sauce is sweated onions and garlic? Ditto for risotto..?

Not knowing where you are from, I'd take a guess at American as there is a sharp divide in garlic use between Italian and Italian-American cusine.

Italian food typically has a lot less garlic in it and if you had it in any of the classic dishes like ragù alla bolognese or risotto alla milanese it would be surprising. Dishes like spaghetti alla puttanesca or aglio e olio are classic examples where it is used.

Marinara sauce of course has garlic as a key ingredient but this is normally thought of as a Italian-American dish and not something you'd typically find in Italy. Likewise if you had a ragu or risotto in the US you'd probably be surprised if there wasn't garlic in it. And let us not forget that other American invention of garlic bread.

One thing I learned recently was that the typical types of garlic available in the US and Italy are different - softneck and hardneck respectively. Hardneck is a _lot_ more flavourful than softneck which I believe goes a long way to explaining why it's used so much more frequently in the US (and in seemingly incredible quantities).

There's a very good YouTube channel [0] about Italian cooking (In Italian, usually with English subtitles available) where on one episode of chef's reacting to other videos of "Italian cooking" they had a laugh about this stereotype of Italians eating lots of garlic.

[0] https://youtube.com/user/italiasquisita

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