OK, I tried. I really tried to give them the benefit of the doubt - I mean it's mit.edu, but seriously what they wrote there and what I know of physics have little to do with one another. I fell like I'm missing a joke somewhere. First off: what does electrolysis have to do with photosynthesis? If you want to store energy it's just as important with wind, or any other. Second: photosynthesis and photovoltaics are not…
'Major discovery' from MIT primed to unleash solar revolution
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Re: 'Major discovery' from MIT primed to unleash solar revolution
#22OK, I tried. I really tried to give them the benefit of the doubt - I mean it's mit.edu, but seriously what they wrote there and what I know of physics have little to do with one another. I fell like I'm missing a joke somewhere. First off: what does electrolysis have to do with photosynthesis? If you want to store energy it's just as important with wind, or any other. Second: photosynthesis and photovoltaics are not…
Yeah, I think photosynthesis doesn't come into play anywhere in the process. They're probably misusing the word to describe the generation of oxygen from water using the sunlight. I think this article gives a better summary: http://www.eetimes.com/news/latest/showArticle.jhtml?article...
In short: as far as I can tell this invention is a new catalyst for increasing the efficiency of electrolysis.
But the catalyst is not better than current ones, it's just less toxic (and therefor cheaper). Which, while helpful, is far from groundbreaking.
The electricity can come from anywhere. Saying solar is just a buzzword to get people to click.
Re: 'Major discovery' from MIT primed to unleash solar revolution
#23Earlier quoted context omitted.
Yeah, I think photosynthesis doesn't come into play anywhere in the process. They're probably misusing the word to describe the generation of oxygen from water using the sunlight. I think this article gives a better summary: http://www.eetimes.com/news/latest/showArticle.jhtml?article...
No it doesn't, sunlight has nothing to do with it (using light to lyse (photolyse?) water would be cool, but they aren't). But thank you for the link, it makes more sense then the other one. In short: as far as I can tell this invention is a new catalyst for increasing the efficiency of electrolysis. But the catalyst is not better than current ones, it's just less toxic (and therefor cheaper). Which, while helpful, i…
If not more efficient, is it at least a cheaper form of energy storage? (Platinum in the catalyst suggests no, although a very thin layer might be good enough.)
Re: 'Major discovery' from MIT primed to unleash solar revolution
#24OK, I tried. I really tried to give them the benefit of the doubt - I mean it's mit.edu, but seriously what they wrote there and what I know of physics have little to do with one another. I fell like I'm missing a joke somewhere. First off: what does electrolysis have to do with photosynthesis? If you want to store energy it's just as important with wind, or any other. Second: photosynthesis and photovoltaics are not…
The paper does focus on photosynthesis, however, because the Nocera's lab works on "artificial photosynthesis," a field largely devoted to understanding the electrochemical processes of photosynthesis and mimicking them in man-made systems. For the most part, "artificial photosynthesis" focuses not on carbon fixation but on the transformation of light to electrochemical energy (via electron/proton transfer). This is the process that Nocera's research is replicating, and likely why he focuses on using solar cells as the source of energy, to parallel a plant's use of solar energy as a route to energy storage/O2 production.
Finally, I think some of your scientific analysis needs correction:
Electrolysis (in its simplest form) doesn't require any solute - it can be performed, very slowly, in pure water. Adding salt (say, NaCl), as you mention, speeds up the rate greatly. However, in doing so, the reaction changes - you'll evolve hydrogen as before, but at the anode you'll evolve chlorine gas, not oxygen. You can't use electrolysis alone to produce oxygen gas or as a route to storing energy. One alternative to this is to use an electrocatalyst, but currently, (as the article mentions), the only available catalysts require expensive metals or very basic environments (or both). This article is on the discovery of a new catalyst that will allow for the production of oxygen via catalyzed electrolysis at neutral pH and with a cheap, abundant catalyst (cobalt).
Also, if we're looking at the same quote: "storing energy for use when the sun doesn't shine," the article is talking about humans storing energy, not plants. Even so, plants do store energy for when the sun doesn't shine. They metabolize hydrocarbons into ATP via mitochondria, just like we do - so glucose and other products of photosynthesis are indeed forms of stored energy.
I think a lot of the confusion stems from the fact that we're reading a popular article and not the actual research - these articles tend to pick up on terms like artificial photosynthesis, energy production, and solar energy and run with them.
Re: 'Major discovery' from MIT primed to unleash solar revolution
#25Earlier quoted context omitted.
In the podcast ( http://www.sciencemag.org/cgi/content/full/sci;1162018/DC2 ) Nocera explains the process perfectly. This "missing link" in electolysis has been the production of O2. Now this is possible. And now a closed loop of water splitting and water production is possible for the first time apparently. So, this could indeed be a possible way to store energy for times when there is no sun or wind available to pr…
Hu? electolysis makes O2 just fine.
If you could reduce the amount of energy required to electrolyze water, then it would make an extremely good energy storage vehicle. That's exactly what this research is about.
Re: 'Major discovery' from MIT primed to unleash solar revolution
#26The desire to store generated energy for use at a different time isn't limited to solar cells or other day-only sources. A similar problem is posed by the fact that conventional power stations have a fixed maximum throughput, but demand is much higher during the day. To balance the load and maximize revenue, a number of power producers employ a decidedly low-tech way to store energy: every night, they pump a lake of…
Re: 'Major discovery' from MIT primed to unleash solar revolution
#27Earlier quoted context omitted.
Hu? electolysis makes O2 just fine.
Not without large amounts of waste energy. This energy cost makes electrolysis impractical for efficient energy storage. If you could reduce the amount of energy required to electrolyze water, then it would make an extremely good energy storage vehicle. That's exactly what this research is about.
It's great to try to make it more efficient, but this research doesn't actually do that, it just makes the equipment cheaper, but at the same efficiency.
And besides electrolysis is a terrible way to store energy because storing hydrogen is impractical (it leaks right though metal). Plus there are unavoidable inefficiencies.
Re: 'Major discovery' from MIT primed to unleash solar revolution
#28OK, I tried. I really tried to give them the benefit of the doubt - I mean it's mit.edu, but seriously what they wrote there and what I know of physics have little to do with one another. I fell like I'm missing a joke somewhere. First off: what does electrolysis have to do with photosynthesis? If you want to store energy it's just as important with wind, or any other. Second: photosynthesis and photovoltaics are not…
You are correct about your first point - the connection with photosynthesis is shaky at best. This research describes a new electrocatalyst for the production of oxygen. The source of electrical energy for driving this production could be solar cells, but that would be just one potential use. The paper does focus on photosynthesis, however, because the Nocera's lab works on "artificial photosynthesis," a field largel…
>artificial photosynthesis" focuses not on carbon fixation but on the transformation of light to electrochemical energy (via electron/proton transfer).
Then why call it photosynthesis? It's not, it's photovoltaics. If you want photosynthesis you have have to fix carbon, or you're making a mockery of the term. And if you are making hydrogen directly, then call it photolysing.
Either way you are not synthesizing anything.
I didn't realize that chlorine is preferred to O2, but what does it matter? I don't want O2, I want H2, and once all the chlorine is gone, won't the sodium hydroxide work just as well as NaCl? Or is that what you mean by 'very basic environment'?
They should rewrite that article and omit any mention of solar, just say they invented a new cheaper way to electrolyze water. Applications include storing energy from solar or wind for when the sun isn't shining.
Doesn't the above paragraph make a lot more sense than the parent article?
Re: 'Major discovery' from MIT primed to unleash solar revolution
#29OK, I tried. I really tried to give them the benefit of the doubt - I mean it's mit.edu, but seriously what they wrote there and what I know of physics have little to do with one another. I fell like I'm missing a joke somewhere. First off: what does electrolysis have to do with photosynthesis? If you want to store energy it's just as important with wind, or any other. Second: photosynthesis and photovoltaics are not…
The reference to photosynthesis is indirect. I think the point of the reference is that photosynthesis stores the sun's energy and then uses it later on. And that is what his process will allow. Photovoltaics can provide energy all day, and instead of feeding the grid and getting energy credit the system can create hydrogen and oxygen gas and then use those later on when the sun is no longer out (through a fuel cell for example). The process, he is claiming will only presumably require water and some other "common" materials.
I imagine something like this could be possible. Some unanswered questions: How efficient is it, if it isn't efficient then can it scale? How expensive are the materials required? Where are the details? A paper, article in a magazine or even a web site with details. I have no idea why MIT would announce something like this without publishing first or simultaneously.
Links I could find:
http://web.mit.edu/chemistry/dgn/www/research/e_conversion.h...
Re: 'Major discovery' from MIT primed to unleash solar revolution
#30Earlier quoted context omitted.
No it doesn't, sunlight has nothing to do with it (using light to lyse (photolyse?) water would be cool, but they aren't). But thank you for the link, it makes more sense then the other one. In short: as far as I can tell this invention is a new catalyst for increasing the efficiency of electrolysis. But the catalyst is not better than current ones, it's just less toxic (and therefor cheaper). Which, while helpful, i…
Correct. Furthermore, they don't even necessarily claim it's more efficient -- or at least, they don't give any numbers. It may be more efficient than electrolysis of water (that's not saying much) but is it more efficient than charging and decharging a battery? If not more efficient, is it at least a cheaper form of energy storage? (Platinum in the catalyst suggests no, although a very thin layer might be good enoug…
I'm not sure what you mean by whether it's more efficient than charging and discharging a battery. But the lifespan of a fuel cell is potentially indefinite and it does not require recharge(add in Oxygen and H+ any time and electricity starts to flow). Further, with each battery cycle, the efficiency of a dry cell decreases.
I think this electrolysis process can definitely make a cheaper form of energy storage than, say, batteries. Even though each anode requires small amount of Platinum, but considering the long lifespan of fuel cell storage, this form of energy storage costs much less than traditional batteries in the long run (all the toxic disposal!) And even for the purposes of propulsion, fuel cell discharge is much more efficient than internal combustion engines.