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We created a fake language to root out resume liars

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Re: We created a fake language to root out resume liars

#221

Post by throwawayzRUU6f »

dmos62 wrote: post #126

Serious question: if you're applying for positions you're not totally confident in your experience and skillset, do you inflate your resume? My thinking goes that if I slip in by being dishonest, I'll be nervous of being found out, feel an intruder. So being honest and taking a longer time looking for match would get more comfort later on.

I've interviewed ~50 people by now - being honest and admitting ignorance earns you minor plus points. Weaseling, dodging the questions or answering the question you wish you were asked instead of the question you were asked - those are major red flags. Remember - you're likely going to be interviewed by somebody more senior than you - the likelihood they'll find out is quite high.

Your task as an interviewee is to provide an honest and accurate assessment of your skillset and competence level.

Re: We created a fake language to root out resume liars

#222

Post by extraduder_ire »

lsh123 wrote: post #20

Long long time ago in a galaxy far far away I used requirement in job postings “10 years of Java experience” (when Java was about 7 years old) as a filter: people who wrote me complaining about unrealistic requirement got interviews; people who sent resumes with 15 years of Java went into /dev/null

Tacking on "or equivalent" to the end of that requirement would make it seem more intentional, and less stupid to the average reader.

Only time I hear about better than real-time experience being required, it's people making fun of whoever wrote the requirement.

Re: We created a fake language to root out resume liars

#223

Post by nicoburns »

mnd999 wrote: post #151
habosa wrote: post #122

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is why some recruiters demand a DOCX of a resume, not just a PDF. They edit them before submitting them to postings. Sometimes they're honest edits to improve your chances, but mostly it's lying to get you in the door.

I’ve been using latex for my CV for years. If they ask for an editable version I just send them the .tex file. I’ve never come across any edited versions at interview.

Mine is graphical, made in Fireworks (exported as PDF). I've also never had this problem.

Re: We created a fake language to root out resume liars

#225

Post by wahern »

prepend wrote: post #133
wahern wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I'm surprised it's still a thing. Because it was a good idea? The whole industry came full circle. Here's some ColdFusion that people now call "Mustache JS": {{Subject}} {{#names}} {{name}} {{/names}} The problem with ColdFusion was that it went in the wrong direction. It tried to copy the trends of the industry by inventing and emphasizing CFScript when it should have doubled-down on the templating strategies and…

I don’t think it’s fair to give credit to CF for templating. In that I think we’d have the exact use of templating today if CF never existed, due to the other templating approaches that existed before CF.

Yes, CF was hardly the first to provide a templating framework for output generation. But ColdFusion's competitive advantage was how it seamlessly integrated database access, in particular SQL SELECTs and INSERTs, into HTML-based template looping and HTML forms. For a ridiculous number of applications, especially business applications, that's all anybody really needs. It was abstract enough to support many kinds of data sources (e.g. CSV files), which IIRC was one of the most common ways to extend the engine. And it was simple enough that even people who struggled jumping from HTML to a proper programming language could crank out useful applications, especially if someone provided them a SQL query to copy+paste.

Years later C# would be lauded for LINQ, which provided for C# what ColdFusion provided to markup transformations.

These sorts of language integrations weren't new, either. Years later I would discover and dabble with Perl's format framework: https://perldoc.perl.org/perlform. I had actually learned Perl a few years before I was introduced to ColdFusion, though I don't think many Perl programmers were ever familiar with formats. (It is rather frustrating for modern uses.) And while I didn't make the connection at the time, I believe some older languages (Fortran? SPSS?) which I was briefly introduced to in college supported similar language-integrated data source and record processing capabilities, though like Perl formats they were designed for tabular text output.

But this history only emphasizes how important of a competitive advantage this was for ColdFusion, which was completely squandered.

Regarding the discussion of PHP elsethread, about a year after taking over maintenance of a ColdFusion website (where I was first introduced to ColdFusion), I advocated for and was allowed to migrate the site to PHP. That was about the time PHP made the switch from Perl (PHP 2) to C (PHP 3). Before then I actually didn't even know PHP existed, despite being an avid Linux and Perl user. At the time I was convinced ColdFusion sucked. It was only later in my career that I slowly began to appreciate what ColdFusion brought to the table technologically.

Re: We created a fake language to root out resume liars

#226

Post by e-clinton »

practicalpants wrote: post #110
brigandish wrote: post #77

> That way, when candidates were pitched to us with "X years of MOVA experience", we knew that somebody was full of it. I'd put my money on the recruiter. I once had an excruciatingly awkward interview at a company on an industrial estate in the middle of nowhereland with no train station nearby that took me bloody ages to get to… which was actually going well until they asked me about my long experience with Exchang…

Yep, for my first programming job out of college a recruiter arranged an onsite interview for a Java role, when I was under every impression it was for Ruby/Rails. I don't know Java. The first interviewer laughed and walked out. I explained things to the recruiter, he cursed, said he would "visit the Ruby team upstairs". He actually managed to setup an impromptu on-site interview with the Ruby team on that same day.…

That’s either the best or worst recruiter ever

Re: We created a fake language to root out resume liars

#227

Post by viraptor »

dempseye wrote: post #209
practicalpants wrote: post #110

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yep, for my first programming job out of college a recruiter arranged an onsite interview for a Java role, when I was under every impression it was for Ruby/Rails. I don't know Java. The first interviewer laughed and walked out. I explained things to the recruiter, he cursed, said he would "visit the Ruby team upstairs". He actually managed to setup an impromptu on-site interview with the Ruby team on that same day.…

The recruiter did good work here. I suspect this was a screw up in internal HR. The external recruiter has absolutely no incentive to send you for an interview you will bomb out of.

I'm not sure. Recruiters can spray and pray with candidates the way candidates can spray and pray with applications. They're not going to be great quality, but if you're paid commission on a hire and the recruitment channel can handle the load... what's to stop the recruiter?

Re: We created a fake language to root out resume liars

#228

Post by michaelt »

devenblake wrote: post #146
brigandish wrote: post #77

> That way, when candidates were pitched to us with "X years of MOVA experience", we knew that somebody was full of it. I'd put my money on the recruiter. I once had an excruciatingly awkward interview at a company on an industrial estate in the middle of nowhereland with no train station nearby that took me bloody ages to get to… which was actually going well until they asked me about my long experience with Exchang…

Reading all these replies and - what the hell? Are recruiters really that common? Are bad recruiters really that common? I wasn't aware this was even a thing.

Recruiters are quite common in cities with a lot of jobs going, and industries with a lot of demand.

In terms of bad recruiters: A recruitment agency will often get a fee of ~20% of an employee's first year's salary - meaning they are extremely motivated.

That high level of motivation has some benefits - for candidates, they'll happily take care of any BS like entering your details into different companies' candidate tracking systems, writing carefully customised cover letters for each job, following up with companies after interviews and so on. And for employers, recruiters will deal with grubby business like cold-calling candidates and will often have access to more candidates.

It also has a bunch of disadvantages - recruiters will happily post fake high-salary jobs to gather resumes, add lies to candidates' resumes, help candidates cheat on work-sample tests, send generous 'gifts' to hiring teams that take their candidates, apply high-pressure sales tactics to wavering candidates, call candidates they placed after a year or two and encourage them to move jobs, and copy the contact database any time they leave a job.

Re: We created a fake language to root out resume liars

#229

Post by hutzlibu »

brigandish wrote: post #77

> That way, when candidates were pitched to us with "X years of MOVA experience", we knew that somebody was full of it. I'd put my money on the recruiter. I once had an excruciatingly awkward interview at a company on an industrial estate in the middle of nowhereland with no train station nearby that took me bloody ages to get to… which was actually going well until they asked me about my long experience with Exchang…

"At moments like those I feel a deep sense of pessimism. The whole recruitment process seems broken from end to end and has been for a while. "

I feel you, but right now I am more concerned about quite some other broken processes to the point of ... what is actually working right?

And then after a while I realize again - actually quite a lot. It just works not by my high theoretical standards.

Re: We created a fake language to root out resume liars

#230

Post by JackFr »

thu2111 wrote: post #208
Deestan wrote: post #179

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When hiring, we filter applications on what they claim on the CV but also actually dig into the required skills on interview. If we find a mismatch, it invalidates the candidate as a whole. If someone claims 8 years of MOVA but doesn't know basic stuff about MOVA semantics, they were either lying, they are incompetent, or they have been coasting.

When I started interviewing I used to do that, until I realised it would eliminate about 20% of all useful candidates. The killer is c++. The industry is filled with people who have vague memories of trying to use C++ in the 90s before switching to Java or c# as quickly as possible, but still put C++ on their resume. In reality they can't even do basic tasks like reading a file into an array. Knocking them out becaus…

I think you’re spot on about C++. I am one of those people who wrote C for many years, worked exclusively in C++ for 4-5 years, but haven’t touched it in about 10-12 years.

In one sense it feels silly to leave it off my resume because it was literally what I did. But I’m not interested in writing C++ and really haven’t touched it in a decade, so I could never pass a technical C++ interview.

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