Joy of using linux • Hacker News Board

Re: Joy of using linux

#51

Post by mbubb » Fri, Jun 10, 2011, 1:29 PM UTC

Joakal wrote: post #10

Wouldn't using the synaptic package manager work better? I've heard it touted as one of the reasons for Linux being superior than Windows and Mac (except for App store) by having a central repository of many programs. Want Gimp? sudo apt-get install gimp or mark Gimp in the package manager and it'll download and install all the related packages and dependencies. My only gripe is that the search is not good but Google…

The search is not an internet based search. It is looking though the repositories that you have selected (cached on your system). If you don't have the right repos you will not find what you need.

Re: Joy of using linux

#52

Post by mbubb » Fri, Jun 10, 2011, 1:33 PM UTC

Wickk wrote: post #23

Derbasti wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You know, he could have inserted his installation DVD and installed it from there. Also, Ubuntu ships without make, Ruby or Python, too, so I can't really see that Linux is at an advantage there. After that, both Linux and Mac are Unix systems and have package managers that can install stuff (third party on Mac). Personally, I spend most of my time in Chrome, a terminal and Vim. On OSX. Because I like it that way. Bu…

>Ubuntu ships without make, Ruby or Python Since when does Ubuntu ship without make and python? Python 2.X has been included in standard installations for quite a few releases now. I also can't remember the last time I had to manually install make.

A barebones install might not have ruby or python. When I install it as a server I try to reduce the packages to a minimum and build up from there. I usually try to a network install as well (for Ubuntu or CentOS).

I would rather put on whatever I want later.

A default Ubuntu install I think has Python on board. Not as sure about Ruby.

Re: Joy of using linux

#53

Post by mbubb » Fri, Jun 10, 2011, 1:36 PM UTC

zwieback wrote: post #42

My main take away from this post is that you shouldn't make bad assumptions about data formats. However, my Linux experience is much like the author's: assume you'll get something to work, find out what's missing, apt-get to the rescue. The problem for me is when things go out of date. I try to install something and it triggers 250MB of seemingly unrelated updates. In all fairness, that usually happens when I build s…

I hope for your sake that yo are not letting it get that much behind on security updates.

I recommend that you do at least this:

https://help.ubuntu.com/community/AutomaticSecurityUpdates

The idea that Linux does not need to be updated is a dangerous one.

Re: Joy of using linux

#54

Post by roel_v » Fri, Jun 10, 2011, 1:42 PM UTC

rjbond3rd wrote: post #47

roel_v wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'd estimate that 90% of the Windows computers out there that are used for 'everyday' work have Access on them. For those users, opening the file is basically double-clicking it. For that to work with sqlite databases, one still needs to install a GUI tool first, hope that it associates the right extension with the sqlite file you have, and then get over the database-centric user interface that all of them have. Look…

I would estimate the number of Windows computers used for "everyday work" which have MS Acces on them is more like 15%. That is just in my personal experience though.

OK fair enough, I don't have anything more substantial than a wild-assed guess to back up my 90% claim. I'd still say that an mdb file is closer to the everyday experience of the average Windows user than an sqlite file is. And even if they're equally difficult to open, the 'openness' of the sqlite data format is still of no importance whatsoever to the average user, which is the original claim I was opposing.

Re: Joy of using linux

#55

Post by Newky » Fri, Jun 10, 2011, 1:47 PM UTC

Derbasti wrote: post #22

Newky wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not trying to start an argument, but in regards to coding, I take your point completely if your talking about iOS development or something specific to Mac Programming, but if not, what exactly were the obstacles for development in Linux. I use Linux mainly because of its ease of use in terms of development. I would be interested in hearing your arguments for the Mac. My friend recently got a Mac, and unbeknown to…

You know, he could have inserted his installation DVD and installed it from there. Also, Ubuntu ships without make, Ruby or Python, too, so I can't really see that Linux is at an advantage there. After that, both Linux and Mac are Unix systems and have package managers that can install stuff (third party on Mac). Personally, I spend most of my time in Chrome, a terminal and Vim. On OSX. Because I like it that way. Bu…

I fully appreciate this, and the 3 applications u have listed are the same as the one's I currently have open.

I stay with Linux as my laptop is fully supported (i.e all devices work seamlessly across almost every distribution I've tried) and I generally find it faster and I guess I also like the lack of a price tag I as a student experience with Linux.

Re: Joy of using linux

#56

Post by roel_v » Fri, Jun 10, 2011, 2:04 PM UTC

raghava wrote: post #43

roel_v wrote: post #2

I like Linux as much as the next guy, but his argument is basically 'Linux couldn't open a file that everybody else could, but by dicking around with random half-assed documented tools we could do it anyway!'. Basically, 'we managed to do something that is absolutely trivial for everybody else by jumping through hoops and spending a bunch of time on it to do it the convoluted way.'. Hmm right, not exactly a compellin…

>> his argument is basically 'Linux couldn't open a file that everybody else could, but by dicking around with random half-assed documented tools we could do it anyway!'. May be one could even interpret it like 'there are a lot of software vendors who force their users into proprietary solutions and formats but with Linux at hand, limitations could be worked around to get things done'. Perspective, isn't it?

No, one couldn't, or at least not from the situation presented here.

Look, there are two situations in the example in the OP:

- 1. User has 'regular' Windows PC with Office. User downloads file from website, double-clicks file, is on his merry way.

- 2. User has Linux PC and an ideological axe to grind so doesn't want to use anything else. User needs to hunt internet for software, turns out not be be so easy, spends hours and finds intense satisfaction in accomplishing something that is considered trivial by other people. User then proceeds to write blog post proclaiming, totally and utterly non sequitur, superiority of Linux because he managed to accomplish said trivial task.

The only 'limitation' here is a self-imposed one - the guy refuses to use anything but Linux to convert his data on. That's like saying 'I ran a marathon with a rope of 30 cm tied between my ankles'. Impressive (in a certain way), sure - but why? Why not just run the more efficient way like everybody else, with no rope?

If you're going to defend your OS by cherry-picking tasks that are somehow easier or more elegantly done by it, go ahead - the internet is full of them, but hey what do I care, everybody is free to do whatever they want in this regard. But this 'example' doesn't make any sense and confirms the general notion that Linux is for people who like technology for technology's sake and revel in finding convoluted, over-engineered solutions to the most menial tasks. And in that sense, it affects us normal people who just want to get stuff done too, because it causes a negative image for Linux, rather than what I'm sure the author thought would be a positive one; hindering its uptake in contexts where it is superior or appropriate.

I'm not saying this guy single-handedly destroyed Linux, I'm just really desperate with seeing this toxic single-mindedness still being so pervasive, after all those years.

Re: Joy of using linux

#57

Post by geoffreyvanwyk » Fri, Jun 10, 2011, 2:05 PM UTC

You mean GNU/Linux.

Re: Joy of using linux

#58

Post by [deleted] » Fri, Jun 10, 2011, 2:17 PM UTC

roel_v wrote: post #25

waterhouse wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How about this story? "Something goes wrong and shit doesn't work. At this point, we would expect to be completely stymied. But no, instead, we manage with a bit of googling and dicking around to fix it!" The comparison isn't with opening this particular file on different operating systems; it's with how you can recover when shit goes wrong (which does happen now and then on all operating systems).

From that story one doesn't draw the conclusion 'Linux is awesome'. At best, it would be 'Google is so cool, I allows me to fix things'. Let's face it, this 'article' was utter fanboyism, and does not exhibit any form of proof that Linux is better than whatever. (I've run Linux since 1998 and I do prefer it for some tasks, like server tasks. I have many years of experience and am well aware of its strengths and weakn…

[deleted]

Re: Joy of using linux

#59

Post by mironathetin » Fri, Jun 10, 2011, 2:34 PM UTC

Newky wrote: post #18

mironathetin wrote: post #8

Well, this is also my experience with linux: many things you want to do just don't work out of the box. There is always (nearly) a way to do things, though. But if you really want to do work and not always fight against your tool of choice, linux is not the thing to use. For coding, I replaced it with Mac OS. This saves me 98% of the problems I had on linux. To be fair: I wouldn't know an out-of-the-box way to conver…

I'm not trying to start an argument, but in regards to coding, I take your point completely if your talking about iOS development or something specific to Mac Programming, but if not, what exactly were the obstacles for development in Linux. I use Linux mainly because of its ease of use in terms of development. I would be interested in hearing your arguments for the Mac. My friend recently got a Mac, and unbeknown to…

"My friend recently got a Mac, and unbeknown to himself was forced to download a 2.something GB download for the developer pack just so he could get GCC, Now I know there are better ways to achieve this, but this to me seems counter productive."

Development on Macs is certainly not without problems. I think Apples philosophy is to provide the whole package to assure there is not problem because of missing parts.

Being a Mac developer is also not free anymore. XCode 4 is the first version of the development tools that costs money. Nothing compared to Visual Studio of course, but the direction is not so great.

I usually ignore all these tools and use Netbeans or bbedit and commandline tools. I can afford that because I build scientific software in java and don't have to deal with Apples packages.

Re: Joy of using linux

#60

Post by brown9-2 » Fri, Jun 10, 2011, 2:50 PM UTC

mnutt wrote: post #50

brown9-2 wrote: post #32

I think this story speaks more to the joy of excellent package managers, something I am sorely missing in OS X.

While not integrated into the OS, Homebrew is an excellent package manager on OS X.

Thanks for the suggestion. I've had better luck with Macports so far, I just wish that a package manager was as seemlessly built-in as it is in Ubuntu or Fedora.