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Japan to stage Tokyo Olympics without overseas spectators

japantoday.com

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Re: Japan to stage Tokyo Olympics without overseas spectators

#41
post #31
post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s true that Japan has done many non-optimal things, but the biggest difference from the west IMO is that there has been close to 100% mask usage (eyeballing in Tokyo, about 95% surgical masks) for over a year now. Any Japanese who see things like Idaho’s recent mask burning protests are simply bewildered. Of course, people take their masks off when eating out, but still keep them on while ordering and waiting for…

> the biggest difference from the west IMO is that there has been close to 100% mask usage (eyeballing in Tokyo, about 95% surgical masks) for over a year now I had something in there about this, but deleted it because I thought it was distracting from the main point, and any mention of masks brings out the politics. That said: I see an...well, let's just call it interesting ...number of Japanese people socializing i…

> I see an...well, let's just call it interesting...number of Japanese people socializing in small restaurants, bars, etc. without wearing masks.

Same in Seoul. When discussing this matter with friends located elsewhere, they seem to have difficulty believing this, but every cafe and restaurant will have 90%+ of visitors talking without masks after they finish eating until the time they leave. (Those sitting alone quietly reading a book will wear masks, ironically they’re the smallest threat.) Government has been dealing with this by temporarily forcing franchised shops to shut down, and later restricting working hours of coffeeshops and restaurants (a few in the area, mostly franchises, had to close forever), while people more or less continued to behave the same way throughout the pandemic if they manage to find a place open for eating in. At a cafe or a restaurant, it almost seems like it’s socially unacceptable to be conversing with a friend whilst wearing a mask.

This makes little sense to me, especially since walking outdoors without a mask is perceived as taboo[0]. At some point public parks had sitting spaces and grass non-figuratively taped over with signs preventing people from gathering in fresh air, all the while restaurants stringing along park edges were visibly chock full of people gathering to talk indoors (I’ve taken a few photos as it was a shocking sight). Initially this made me furious as I saw pure malice in that arrangement; later someone told me that the government “just” wanted to not be liable for infections that occur in spaces under their direct jurisdiction. This persisted for months until people gradually started ignoring the tape in the park.

The only place where everyone reliably wears a mask is buses: bus drivers monitor the cabin and seem to take this matter very seriously.

If I’m to speculate, the reason it’s comparatively fine now is thanks to extensive testing and seemingly working contact tracing measures.

[0] You’ll be judged unless you are stationary and smoking, in which case no one would bat an eye. Go figure!

Re: Japan to stage Tokyo Olympics without overseas spectators

#42
post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> the biggest difference from the west IMO is that there has been close to 100% mask usage (eyeballing in Tokyo, about 95% surgical masks) for over a year now I had something in there about this, but deleted it because I thought it was distracting from the main point, and any mention of masks brings out the politics. That said: I see an...well, let's just call it interesting ...number of Japanese people socializing i…

> I see an...well, let's just call it interesting...number of Japanese people socializing in small restaurants, bars, etc. without wearing masks. Same in Seoul. When discussing this matter with friends located elsewhere, they seem to have difficulty believing this, but every cafe and restaurant will have 90%+ of visitors talking without masks after they finish eating until the time they leave. (Those sitting alone qu…

When infection rates spiked, did Korean people reduce the time they spend maskless in public indoor spaces?

Are Korean people more likely to wear a mask in public when they're feeling sick?

Re: Japan to stage Tokyo Olympics without overseas spectators

#43
post #31
post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s true that Japan has done many non-optimal things, but the biggest difference from the west IMO is that there has been close to 100% mask usage (eyeballing in Tokyo, about 95% surgical masks) for over a year now. Any Japanese who see things like Idaho’s recent mask burning protests are simply bewildered. Of course, people take their masks off when eating out, but still keep them on while ordering and waiting for…

> the biggest difference from the west IMO is that there has been close to 100% mask usage (eyeballing in Tokyo, about 95% surgical masks) for over a year now I had something in there about this, but deleted it because I thought it was distracting from the main point, and any mention of masks brings out the politics. That said: I see an...well, let's just call it interesting ...number of Japanese people socializing i…

When infection rates spiked, did Japanese people reduce the time they spend maskless in public indoor spaces?

Are Japanese people more likely to wear a mask in public when they're feeling sick?

Do Japanese restaurants still have good ventilation systems, originally installed to remove cigarette smoke before the 2020 indoor smoking ban?

Re: Japan to stage Tokyo Olympics without overseas spectators

#44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I see an...well, let's just call it interesting...number of Japanese people socializing in small restaurants, bars, etc. without wearing masks. Same in Seoul. When discussing this matter with friends located elsewhere, they seem to have difficulty believing this, but every cafe and restaurant will have 90%+ of visitors talking without masks after they finish eating until the time they leave. (Those sitting alone qu…

When infection rates spiked, did Korean people reduce the time they spend maskless in public indoor spaces? Are Korean people more likely to wear a mask in public when they're feeling sick?

> When infection rates spiked, did Korean people reduce the time they spend maskless in public indoor spaces?

I’d say “yes but not quite to degree people seem to expect”.

First, I don’t have direct evidence as I stopped working from an office a while back, but I believe that within office spaces—which fall under semi-public indoor spaces I suppose—being maskless outside smoking areas is not tolerated.

Second, I believe people have on average reduced the time they spend in indoor spaces (maskless or not) other than their homes or work, since eating out slightly lost popularity relative to getting food delivered since the pandemic started. (Still, many people do eat out in groups and restaurants have rarely been empty, only shut down during peaks.)

> Are Korean people more likely to wear a mask in public when they're feeling sick?

You’d be hard-pressed to find people being visibly sick in public, this seems to carry a strong stigma. I could maybe spot 1–2 people in a week sneezing/coughing outdoors or in a cafe, and this won’t be someone in a chatty maskless group. Transmission by asymptomatic carriers is the one that concerns me.

I think the above equally applies to Koreans as it does to foreigners residing in Seoul.

(Above is from my perspective only, could be biased.)

Re: Japan to stage Tokyo Olympics without overseas spectators

#45

This seems like the worst outcome for Japan and best outcome for the IOC. Japan incurs all the cost of hosting the Olympics while reaping none of the tourist yen, while the IOC gets paid the broadcasting fee. At this point the optimal outcome for Japan is probably to cancel the game altogether. Is it an example of the political pull of the IOC? The Asian culture of face-saving? Or plain old sunk cost fallacy? I hones…

What's the alternative, really? Essentially letting billions of $ of infrastructure go to complete waste? That said, I agree with you. Then again the host city always pulls the shit end of the stick when organizing such an event.

Sunk cost fallacy

Re: Japan to stage Tokyo Olympics without overseas spectators

#46
This is such a painful situation for Japan. When I visited a couple a years ago the preparations were still going full force. They were so proud and looking forward to hosting it. Really think they are between a rock and a hard place with any decision.

This together with all the sub-human conditions the workers in Qatar for the football world championship make it seem like organising events like this not something I would feel comfortable with hosting in my own country. It seems like it's a combination of hot potato and ego projects for specific people in governments.

hell, couple of years ago my country "won" the rights to host eurovision song festival. I'm not against investing money in a broad set of cultural activities. But looking at the amount of money it costed to host it felt not something that was worth the tax payers money. Rather we just payed the artists then all the pseudo glamour surrounding it.

Re: Japan to stage Tokyo Olympics without overseas spectators

#47
post #10
post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As far as I know, all versions of the vaccine reduce symptoms for the vaccinated, but they can still catch covid and transmit it to others. That’s a risk to a large unvaccinated local population.

This is outdated speculation. The preponderance of current evidence points toward what we expect from previous vaccines -- once you've been immunized, you are incredibly unlikely to transmit the virus to others: https://reason.com/2021/03/08/contrary-to-what-the-cdcs-new-... In fact, the CDC just updated it's own guidelines to reflect these same facts: https://www.npr.org/sections/coronavirus-live-updates/2021/0... I…

From your cited Reason article:

> During a follow-up period beginning seven days after the second dose, vaccinated subjects were 92 percent less likely to test positive for the coronavirus, 94 percent less likely to develop COVID-19 symptoms, and 92 percent less likely to suffer serious disease. In other words, the risk of infection at this stage was much smaller than it was in the unvaccinated group. Although that risk was not completely eliminated, the CDC notes that "preliminary data from Israel suggest that persons vaccinated with Pfizer-BioNTech COVID-19 vaccine who develop COVID-19 have a four-fold lower viral load than unvaccinated persons," which implies that they are less likely to transmit the virus even when they are infected.

This seems consistent with what I wrote earlier.

Further, from the NPR article:

> Vaccinated people can also visit, unmasked, with people from another household who are not yet vaccinated, as long as those people are at low risk of serious illness from the virus. However, the agency said, vaccinated people should continue to wear masks when they're in public, avoid crowds and take other precautions when gathering with unvaccinated people who are at high risk of serious illness from COVID-19.

Re: Japan to stage Tokyo Olympics without overseas spectators

#48

This is such a painful situation for Japan. When I visited a couple a years ago the preparations were still going full force. They were so proud and looking forward to hosting it. Really think they are between a rock and a hard place with any decision. This together with all the sub-human conditions the workers in Qatar for the football world championship make it seem like organising events like this not something I…

You hopefully paid to attract loads of event tourists, who bring money to the local economy

Re: Japan to stage Tokyo Olympics without overseas spectators

#49
post #16

The sad truth is that COVID accelerated xenophobia and isolationism throughout the world, and Japan is no exception.

Why the downvotes? Japan's COVID policy has been quite openly xenophobic: for a long time, Japanese citizens could return with minimal checks, but even permanent residents had an absolute bar on re-entry.

Re: Japan to stage Tokyo Olympics without overseas spectators

#50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So no need to wear a mask then.

Yes this is actually correct. Continuing to wear a mask in public is about compliance, not safety per se: if exceptions were made for the vaccinated, people who just don't want to wear a mask would be hard to separate from those who are no longer at risk of catching or spreading the disease. As someone who has had natural immunity (it sucked, made a full recovery) for most of the pandemic, this has been on my mind, s…

This isn't stressed enough though. When dealing with such issues we also need to consider group behaviour as a whole.

Every additional exception introduces costs and risks so it makes sense for a part of the population to signal compliance unnecessarily.

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