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Shops return to rural Sweden but are now staff-free

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351–360 of 428 posts

Re: Shops return to rural Sweden but are now staff-free

#351
post #274

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Never thought I'd read the "What have you got to hide?" argument on HN of all places. First of all, you're being disingenious by putting up a strawman argument about "how much milk and eggs you buy." It is never about only milk and eggs. Advertising is only a part of it. Once you have an ID required to shop there, you can easily track who was there. You can follow their movements around the shop with cameras once you…

> You can use this for your own gains, let's say you are a bank employee or police officer who wants to keep tabs on your spouse. I think it's obvious that the data would not be public domain but stored strongly secured somewhere with very limited access. There are already very strict data privacy laws in Europe and the trend is clearly towards even more strictness. I, too, don't see any issue as long the as the laws…

The laws may punish the misuse of data, but laws change, as do vilified minorities.

Never forget that while you may be one of the privileged now, your status will change throughout your life. If you’re lucky you will only become a more privileged individual, if not, you may wish to have a few more anonymous interactions on a regular basis.

Protecting privacy isn’t so much about not caring who knows the quantity of eggs you buy a week it’s about acknowledging history and the fickle winds of change. It’s sort of easy to believe that progressive attitudes will continue to prevail and that history tends to lead to increasing enlightenment, but there are often major backslides on issues of social norms and inclusiveness. It’s also about realizing that what you do today might not get you in trouble, but what you did last year might, even though last year no one would have thought twice about what you did.

Re: Shops return to rural Sweden but are now staff-free

#352
post #339

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For example, I'm disclosing my schedule: when I'm likely to be in a given neighborhood, at a certain store, or simply not at home. I'm disclosing my habits: do I buy alcohol frequently? Do I buy certain magazines? None of it is critical information, but I'm not only handing it out, I'm wrapping it up into a neat, searchable bundle for bulk analysis. And more importantly, there will soon be no easy way to opt out; any…

> I'm disclosing my habits: do I buy alcohol frequently? Not in Sweden, because only state-run stores can sell alcohol (above 3.5% alcohol to be exact) - it's called Systembolaget and they already know exactly how much you drink! https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Systembolaget

In the State of Oregon only state-licensed stores can sell hard liquor. "Hard" seems to be about 20% because you can buy wine and beer under that percentage in grocery stores.

The price is the same at all stores and there's a price list online: http://www.olcc.state.or.us/pdfs/monthly_alpha_price_list_c....

A lot of business is done in cash at these stores. They're traditionally a lucrative place to rob because of the cash. There seems to be some people who don't want to be tracked but mostly the cash customers seem to be people who deal more with cash themselves.

Re: Shops return to rural Sweden but are now staff-free

#353

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> There is growing awareness that this service should not be run by private companies/banks. At risk of sounding snarky, I'm growing in awareness that the anonymous nature of paper money and coin had a lot of advantages. I would be unhappy if the only option for groceries in my area required me to strongly identify myself to shop there.

Why? Why are you worried about disclosing how much milk and eggs you buy? I know this is the age old "I have nothing to hide" argument but I truly am curious why people are so afraid of saying where they're travelling (train tickets) or what they're buying (shops). Don't you think that once that dystopian future comes - when that info might be used against you - we'll have much worse things to worry about?

> I know this is the age old "I have nothing to hide" argument

If you know that, you already know why it is a specious argument.

Re: Shops return to rural Sweden but are now staff-free

#354
post #202

The BankID service seems to trip up many people here. Swedish residents have a personal identity number issued at birth or immigration. Format: YYYYMMDD-NNNN. More details: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Personal_identity_number_(Swed... BankID is a service run by the Swedish banks that interfaces with the banks, individuals and third parties (like this chain of unmanned stores). https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BankID T…

> There is growing awareness that this service should not be run by private companies/banks. At risk of sounding snarky, I'm growing in awareness that the anonymous nature of paper money and coin had a lot of advantages. I would be unhappy if the only option for groceries in my area required me to strongly identify myself to shop there.

And yet, you are probably happy if some criminals are caught with the help of surveillance camera footage. In the past when there were shops in every neighbourhood, the owners of these shops knew all their customers. They exactly knew who they could trust and who not. It has happened to me that when I went to an open air market, where you stil have to make an order, they people behind the stall after some time just remembered what I was coming for, while they must see thousands of customers each week.

Re: Shops return to rural Sweden but are now staff-free

#355
post #194
post #133

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What's your point? That people should be indentured in low paying jobs to be old people's friends?

It's a little bit... weird to think of "working in a grocery store" as indentured servitude. You know, not everyone has to be a software engineer or full-stack whatever. There's absolutely nothing wrong with working in a grocery store, it's a fine way to make a living!

> it's a fine way to make a living!

The problem is that they don’t make a living. People who work in grocery stores aren’t working there because they want to, but usually just because it’s their only option. If they quit their jobs they would be homeless by the end of the month. Do you understand what their living conditions are like? It’s really sad and it makes me uncomfortable to talk to them. Minimum wage workers in high cost of living cities are just slavery as a service.

Re: Shops return to rural Sweden but are now staff-free

#356

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> There is growing awareness that this service should not be run by private companies/banks. At risk of sounding snarky, I'm growing in awareness that the anonymous nature of paper money and coin had a lot of advantages. I would be unhappy if the only option for groceries in my area required me to strongly identify myself to shop there.

Why? Why are you worried about disclosing how much milk and eggs you buy? I know this is the age old "I have nothing to hide" argument but I truly am curious why people are so afraid of saying where they're travelling (train tickets) or what they're buying (shops). Don't you think that once that dystopian future comes - when that info might be used against you - we'll have much worse things to worry about?

> Why are you worried about disclosing how much milk and eggs you buy?

They can see sexual activity, if you're a parent/expecting, a ton of health information, if you're a smoker, your physical location, and more.

This isn't about eggs and milk. The data in combination constitutes a greater breach of privacy than the most dedicated stalker could hope to achieve.

Re: Shops return to rural Sweden but are now staff-free

#358
post #213

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've had that last summer driving through Germany - stopped to charge my car, only to discover that all charging stations at that particular Auobahn station will only accept a German-issued[0] debit or credit cards. As a tourist....tough luck I guess? [0]I knew it because of course you had to use an app to start charging, and the app had a pre-filled and unchangable country set to Germany for billing details.

I had that problem with rail tickets in Germany, too... stations with machines that would only accept the local kind of bank card, not my Visa card. Weirdly, at the main station in Bochum (for example), there were some machines that would accept a Visa card - but even the staff in the in-person ticket office seemed to be completely ignorant of this. (And no, they wouldn't accept my card there, either. But eventually…

I've run into a similar problem in Sweden with parking. Many places have app-controlled parking, I have the biggest apps, but some parking places have other solutions. One place had removed the on-site machines that took card payments, and only had a phone number. I called the number from my Swedish phone number, entered my Swedish personal ID number, and then the automated service informed me that they couldn't process me because I wasn't a Swedish resident... So there was no way for me to pay for my parking.

Non-swedes would be even more shit out of luck than I was, they wouldn't even be able to navigate the phone service. So weird.

Re: Shops return to rural Sweden but are now staff-free

#359
post #150

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Isn't people work at these jobs because there's no other options available for them?

Where I'm at, the vast majority of employees working "grunt" positions in supermarkets are high schoolers along with some elderly and disabled folks. Given those demographics, I strongly suspect most of them are not working there to make a living.

[deleted]

Re: Shops return to rural Sweden but are now staff-free

#360
post #348
post #202

The BankID service seems to trip up many people here. Swedish residents have a personal identity number issued at birth or immigration. Format: YYYYMMDD-NNNN. More details: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Personal_identity_number_(Swed... BankID is a service run by the Swedish banks that interfaces with the banks, individuals and third parties (like this chain of unmanned stores). https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BankID T…

Practical question: Does this mean as a foreigner you cannot use these shops? I know from trips to sweden that a lot of people use a custom payment system called swish that only exists in sweden, but I never had trouble paying with a visa card (with cash is sometimes a problem in sweden).

You probably can't, at least not in the first iteration. I suspect they might be forced to accept credit cards eventually, because of EU legislation.
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