Music Software and Bad Interface Design: Avid’s Sibelius (2018) [video] • Hacker News Board

Re: Music Software and Bad Interface Design: Avid’s Sibelius (2018) [video]

#11

Post by coldtea » Tue, Mar 09, 2021, 1:00 PM UTC

qmmmur wrote: post #9

adrianh wrote: post #5

This video is only a few years old but should already be considered a classic. Not long after, the video's creator was hired to lead design of MuseScore (another sheet music desktop app). I find the world of music notation software to be fascinating in its diversity of design philosophies. Something about music notation — its complexity, plus its worldwide ubiquity, plus the business reality that there's (relatively)…

I would hedge that's the majority of the world doesn't learn or doesn't care for Western notation to be fair.

And you'd be wrong. Western notation is used throughout the world, even more so than local notation systems.

That's 100% true for classical, jazz, marching band, etc. musicians, but also for musicians in "pop" genres.

Even folk/ethnic musicians around the world, with a few exceptions, are more common to use western notation than their historical notation (if available). If they gig and work with studios and orchestras, that's almost a certain.

Re: Music Software and Bad Interface Design: Avid’s Sibelius (2018) [video]

#12

Post by uranusjr » Tue, Mar 09, 2021, 1:20 PM UTC

dfan wrote: post #10

jasode wrote: post #2

Well, the founders of Sibelius created another music notation software called Dorico[1]. Is Dorico's UI more consistent? Does it address many of the issues of this video's criticism? Or put another way, does being a green-field software project allow the freedom to create a sane UI? Or did it have to deliberately copy may of Sibelius' faults so migrating users can quickly get up to speed with Dorico? (Analogous to MS…

Dorico is indeed better, and definitely not a copy of Sibelius UI-wise. Not only was the team starting over with a lot more experience under their belt, but they also had a much better idea of what didn't scale (from a user interface perspective) from the original Sibelius to its current incarnation, which has tons more features. It's worth pointing out that when Sibelius was first released, it was hugely nicer to us…

It was also hugely nicer than the Sibelius now. In fact I’d even say Dorico is more like Sibelius (around version 3 or so, when the UI peaked IMO) than the current Sibelius.

Re: Music Software and Bad Interface Design: Avid’s Sibelius (2018) [video]

#13

Post by CornCobs » Tue, Mar 09, 2021, 1:22 PM UTC

qmmmur wrote: post #9

adrianh wrote: post #5

This video is only a few years old but should already be considered a classic. Not long after, the video's creator was hired to lead design of MuseScore (another sheet music desktop app). I find the world of music notation software to be fascinating in its diversity of design philosophies. Something about music notation — its complexity, plus its worldwide ubiquity, plus the business reality that there's (relatively)…

I would hedge that's the majority of the world doesn't learn or doesn't care for Western notation to be fair.

I'm quite sure that's not right. I don't think anything else is in much common use besides basic solfege, especially for teaching.

Re: Music Software and Bad Interface Design: Avid’s Sibelius (2018) [video]

#14

Post by hdjfkkrrn » Tue, Mar 09, 2021, 1:35 PM UTC

CornCobs wrote: post #13

qmmmur wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would hedge that's the majority of the world doesn't learn or doesn't care for Western notation to be fair.

I'm quite sure that's not right. I don't think anything else is in much common use besides basic solfege, especially for teaching.

Music production (ie: what you hear on radio, Spotify, ...) pretty much exclusively uses the so called "piano roll" notation.

Most music production software (Ableton, ...) doesn't even support Western notation.

Re: Music Software and Bad Interface Design: Avid’s Sibelius (2018) [video]

#15

Post by anoonmoose » Tue, Mar 09, 2021, 1:39 PM UTC

coldtea wrote: post #11

qmmmur wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would hedge that's the majority of the world doesn't learn or doesn't care for Western notation to be fair.

And you'd be wrong. Western notation is used throughout the world, even more so than local notation systems. That's 100% true for classical, jazz, marching band, etc. musicians, but also for musicians in "pop" genres. Even folk/ethnic musicians around the world, with a few exceptions, are more common to use western notation than their historical notation (if available). If they gig and work with studios and orchestra…

Or the two of you are just talking about different things. It is totally possible for "Western notation is used throughout the world" and "the majority of the world does not learn Western notation" to be true at the same time.

What relevance their comment has is beyond me- perhaps making a point about the relatively niche market of "people who want to write music"- but who knows.

Re: Music Software and Bad Interface Design: Avid’s Sibelius (2018) [video]

#16

Post by Kye » Tue, Mar 09, 2021, 1:50 PM UTC

hdjfkkrrn wrote: post #14

CornCobs wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm quite sure that's not right. I don't think anything else is in much common use besides basic solfege, especially for teaching.

Music production (ie: what you hear on radio, Spotify, ...) pretty much exclusively uses the so called "piano roll" notation. Most music production software (Ableton, ...) doesn't even support Western notation.

Ableton Live is at least making movements toward supporting more traditional music-making. 11 lets you pick between flats and sharps.

https://old.reddit.com/r/ableton/comments/jsqfvx/a_small_det...

Re: Music Software and Bad Interface Design: Avid’s Sibelius (2018) [video]

#17

Post by mazelife » Tue, Mar 09, 2021, 1:56 PM UTC

I've stubbornly stayed on Sibelius 6 for years, but it no longer works on OS X Catalina, so I was pondering biting the bullet and upgrading to 8. But after seeing this...

Does anyone have any recommendations for a _real_ alternative they've used?* I took a look at MuseScore a couple of years ago and the impression I got was that it was fine for casual usage and for producing fairly simple scores, but lacked a lot of features. (I found that to be the case LillyPond as well.) Dorico looks more promising, but I'm curious what people who've used it heavily think.

I didn't even know that Finale was still around, but that was the first notation software I learned. Ironic that the reason Sibelius was able to trounce Finale in the marketplace so many years ago was mainly because the UI was so much easier to use and more intuitive. And now it's succumbed to the same problems.

*Features I'd like to see: parts generation, graphical score options, midi-based entry, and something that offers good default engraving behavior out-of-the-box but also lets you tweak everything to your liking. I typically sketch things out on on paper first, so I care less about "composition features" and more about being able to produce scores that are correct and that allow me to notate everything I would want.

Re: Music Software and Bad Interface Design: Avid’s Sibelius (2018) [video]

#18

Post by coldtea » Tue, Mar 09, 2021, 2:01 PM UTC

anoonmoose wrote: post #15

coldtea wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And you'd be wrong. Western notation is used throughout the world, even more so than local notation systems. That's 100% true for classical, jazz, marching band, etc. musicians, but also for musicians in "pop" genres. Even folk/ethnic musicians around the world, with a few exceptions, are more common to use western notation than their historical notation (if available). If they gig and work with studios and orchestra…

Or the two of you are just talking about different things. It is totally possible for "Western notation is used throughout the world" and "the majority of the world does not learn Western notation" to be true at the same time. What relevance their comment has is beyond me- perhaps making a point about the relatively niche market of "people who want to write music"- but who knows.

>"the majority of the world does not learn Western notation" to be true at the same time.

Well, that's true in the sense that non-musicians don't care for it, but that's also irrelevant (and something everybody already knows).

If the parent was making that statement, I'm not sure why they felt it needed to be said :-)

Re: Music Software and Bad Interface Design: Avid’s Sibelius (2018) [video]

#19

Post by [deleted] » Tue, Mar 09, 2021, 2:02 PM UTC

CornCobs wrote: post #13

qmmmur wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would hedge that's the majority of the world doesn't learn or doesn't care for Western notation to be fair.

I'm quite sure that's not right. I don't think anything else is in much common use besides basic solfege, especially for teaching.

[deleted]

Re: Music Software and Bad Interface Design: Avid’s Sibelius (2018) [video]

#20

Post by klodolph » Tue, Mar 09, 2021, 2:05 PM UTC

hdjfkkrrn wrote: post #14

CornCobs wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm quite sure that's not right. I don't think anything else is in much common use besides basic solfege, especially for teaching.

Music production (ie: what you hear on radio, Spotify, ...) pretty much exclusively uses the so called "piano roll" notation. Most music production software (Ableton, ...) doesn't even support Western notation.

If you’re talking about solo producers churning out electronic beats in their studios, sure. If that’s what you listen to on Spotify, fine.

First of all, music production is only a small part of music. There are tons of people out there who play musical instruments, and a much smaller number of people who do music production.

Almost nobody who plays an instrument will use piano roll notation, because piano roll notation just fucking sucks. It’s the shittiest way to read music. Nearly everyone who reads music in some way reads a score, reads tablature, or at the very least, reads the chords.

Second, when you look at music production, there are big chunks of it done with scores. You know why Cubase and Logic are so popular? Partly because they have decent notation systems in them. They’re not competitive with Sibelius/MuseScore/etc., but they work. That’s because people writing scores want to know, “What chord was that? Should I change the chord? Should I revoice it?”