Bill Gates Says that Bitcoin is bad For the Planet • Hacker News Board

Re: Bill Gates Says that Bitcoin is bad For the Planet

#811

Post by level09 » Tue, Mar 09, 2021, 12:29 PM UTC

jetpackjoe wrote: post #9

There are so many better crypto-currencies. Better for the environment because they use proof-of-stake, and not proof-of-work. Better for users because transactions are confirmed in seconds, not hours, and without the ridiculous fees that Bitcoin has. I think this shows how truly powerful the network effect, and being first to market is. Because without those things, Bitcoin would be nothing.

Those are not better. Bitcoin offers too many things, trading off decentralization and security for speed is not exactly a better solution.

Moreover, those "better" solutions are mostly operated and promoted by founders with questionable profit incentives, they also control the rules of those crypto-currencies.

Bitcoin shines due to its fixed Rules, unknown founder, best incentive structure.

Re: Bill Gates Says that Bitcoin is bad For the Planet

#812

Post by DennisP » Tue, Mar 09, 2021, 12:31 PM UTC

tekknik wrote: post #802

DennisP wrote: post #633

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are stablecoins on Ethereum that fix that problem. Some of them are derivatives backed by nothing but ETH.

So, right back to fiat!

No reason we couldn't peg those to the price of gold, a basket of commodities, or of consumer goods.

Re: Bill Gates Says that Bitcoin is bad For the Planet

#813

Post by saalweachter » Tue, Mar 09, 2021, 12:57 PM UTC

quartus wrote: post #808

jasonlaramburu wrote: post #427

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Crypto is 'backed' by the sunk cost of the energy used to mine it.

This is an interesting thought that crypto (or at least proof of work crypto) is backed by a sunk cost of an otherwise useless task. But let me extend that paradigm: why is (or isn't) gold also not baked by a sunk cost? What was the point of all that expensive mining and digging if not for the sole purpose to extract that shiny metal from the earth's crust?

Mining gold removes it from the earth in the future; mining Bitcoin secures the blockchain in the past.

If the moment you stopped mining gold, it began to sink into the earth again, would the amount of mining you did in the past have value in the future?

Re: Bill Gates Says that Bitcoin is bad For the Planet

#814

Post by jf22 » Tue, Mar 09, 2021, 1:01 PM UTC

yazaddaruvala wrote: post #693

jf22 wrote: post #609

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is a difference between monetary value and utilitarian value. Bitcoin has negligent utilitarian value. It does nothing besides reward people who can consume energy the fastest.

There is a difference between short term utilitarian value and long term utilitarian value. BTC might have no short term utilitarian value, but in the long term the utilitarian value is to create a globalized monetary policy. 1. BTC is speculative because it may not actually achieve the goal of a single globalized monetary policy. Some other crypto might become the defacto denationalized currency instead, or maybe no…

>globalized monetary policy

Could we do this without burning more energy than entire countries?

Re: Bill Gates Says that Bitcoin is bad For the Planet

#815

Post by DennisP » Tue, Mar 09, 2021, 1:47 PM UTC

dlubarov wrote: post #809

knuthsat wrote: post #453

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm aware of approaches similar to this: https://gist.github.com/DavidBurkett/32e33835b03f9101666690b... describing offline transactions.

That title might be misleading; the doc is just about generating transactions without the sender and recipient needing to engage in an interactive protocol. It doesn't address double spending.

Ah, so this is a thing just because mimblewimble's private transactions are interactive. Regular blockchain transactions are already non-interactive.

Re: Bill Gates Says that Bitcoin is bad For the Planet

#816

Post by uh-quan » Tue, Mar 09, 2021, 2:21 PM UTC

throwawayffffas wrote: post #317

shiado wrote: post #62

The irony is that the exact society destabilizing grand visions of the future billionaires advocate for are some of the main drivers behind people embracing Bitcoin. If you push a "you own nothing" WEF approved dystopian tech oligarch reality don't be surprised when people adopt an asset that cannot be confiscated by the government.

I find it really cute that people think that a fully transparent public ledger, where every transaction is written for all to see, is the way to escape government control.

It is silly if by "escape government control" one means avoiding taxes, buying illegal substances, etc.

But if by "escape government control" one means a currency that the government cannot interfere with to censor/stop transactions, or a currency that cannot be debased on the government's whim, the public ledger is exactly why bitcoin can do what it does.

Re: Bill Gates Says that Bitcoin is bad For the Planet

#817

Post by CountDrewku » Tue, Mar 09, 2021, 3:01 PM UTC

asdff wrote: post #526

acruns wrote: post #374

At what point did Bill become an expert on everything? It's cute that he takes his little bag of books and secluded himself in his she-shed and reads. But honestly, why do we now trust him to be an expert on so many subjects when he hasn't even gotten an undergraduate degree in anything, let alone spent decades studying a field. I can't tell you how many books I have read by experts that later turned out to completel…

Where is this rage coming from? It doesn't take an expert to see the damage bitcoin is causing for the planet, the exernalities are pretty clearly outlined (although conspicuously ignored by crypto-evangelicals). His quote in the article is true. I also don't understand the attacks on his academic credentials. He had been working in his field since he was 13, he's published in CS, and he was taking graduate level cla…

It's coming from the fact that Bill Gates is one of the richest men in the world and has massive sway over his followers. This is dangerous. It's the same reason celebrities speaking on issues they have no idea about is dangerous. People will take his word for truth when he's no more informed than the average citizen on what's happening.

Re: Bill Gates Says that Bitcoin is bad For the Planet

#818

Post by CountDrewku » Tue, Mar 09, 2021, 3:03 PM UTC

s1artibartfast wrote: post #561

acruns wrote: post #374

At what point did Bill become an expert on everything? It's cute that he takes his little bag of books and secluded himself in his she-shed and reads. But honestly, why do we now trust him to be an expert on so many subjects when he hasn't even gotten an undergraduate degree in anything, let alone spent decades studying a field. I can't tell you how many books I have read by experts that later turned out to completel…

I'm not sure anyone is being swayed by Bill Gate's opinion. Who is pushing the idea that he is an expert, or that expertise is even required to have an opinion?

Uh the media... I mean he's everywhere being interviewed constantly on what his opinion is on everything. This obviously promotes the idea (right or wrong) that he has some idea of what he's talking about.

Re: Bill Gates Says that Bitcoin is bad For the Planet

#819

Post by jasonlaramburu » Tue, Mar 09, 2021, 3:36 PM UTC

quartus wrote: post #808

jasonlaramburu wrote: post #427

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Crypto is 'backed' by the sunk cost of the energy used to mine it.

This is an interesting thought that crypto (or at least proof of work crypto) is backed by a sunk cost of an otherwise useless task. But let me extend that paradigm: why is (or isn't) gold also not baked by a sunk cost? What was the point of all that expensive mining and digging if not for the sole purpose to extract that shiny metal from the earth's crust?

To some degree they are similar. The one difference is perhaps that BTC mining income is effectively guaranteed, ie if you join a mining pool and invest enough money, you will get a return of known quantity. In contrast, you could invest a virtually unlimited amount of money in a gold mining operation but not get anything back.

Re: Bill Gates Says that Bitcoin is bad For the Planet

#820

Post by hannasanarion » Tue, Mar 09, 2021, 5:03 PM UTC

thebean11 wrote: post #777

hannasanarion wrote: post #771

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, the goal posts are standing still at "competitively successful commercial activity". The fact that somebody somewhere hammers nails with glass jars doesn't mean that glass hammers are about to take over the hardware world. Early investors getting rich off of a Ponzi scheme doesn't make the Ponzi a good businessman. DeFi is used almost exclusively as margin for speculation. Since smart contracts have no legal forc…

> nobody is using it > no competitively successful commercial activity Those are two wildly different claims but I'll bite anyway: Your argument against DeFi could be made about Schwab, or any brokerage providing margin so I don't find it very compelling. Is selling margin to gamblers not a "competitively successful commercial activity"? Your original claim was that there were no users. > crypto distributed betting m…

Now you're just being deliberately obtuse.

> semantics

Every competent English speaker knows that the phrase "nobody uses X" is never meant to be taken literally. When I say "nobody uses PowerPC", I mean that its market share is miniscule and the industry has moved on, I am not claiming that there does not exist some nerd somewhere who maintains a 20 year old imac as a hobby, and finding that nerd is not a disproof.

> margin trading

Margin accounts are not commercial activity. When you buy or trade securities, whether on margin or otherwise, no new value is being created, no workers are being paid, no commodities are being traded, no products are being consumed.

The entire market could vanish overnight and nobody would notice, because it isn't doing anything, it's just making increasingly complicated guesses at what other people will do.

> betting is like self-driving cars

Self driving cars are new technology. Online betting is not, it has been around since the beginning of the internet. Blockchain is doing nothing but helping the illegal gamblers to hide from law enforcement.