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On Being Blacklisted

aaronkunin.medium.com

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Re: On Being Blacklisted

#181

Post by fatbird »

manfredo wrote: post #155
ariabuckles wrote: post #128

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The question in that survey is different: it asks whether people self-censor because of others. That's pretty different than whether inclusivity is a worthwhile goal, and surveys are notoriously variable based on wording. For example, I would answer yes to that question, I censor myself to avoid offending people (I have done so in this thread, to try to keep it constructive), but I strongly support work to make colle…

It didn't just ask about censoring specific words or terms, or staying polite. It asked about censoring beliefs . Say someone who is very much in favor of legal abortion stays silent as one of their co-workers goes on about how abortion should be banned, for fear of offending said co-worker. Is the fact that this person held back from sharing their beliefs an example of inclusivity? I'd say that this is not only fals…

You're prioritizing inclusivity of beliefs over inclusivity of speakers.

Re: On Being Blacklisted

#182

Post by baggy_trough »

murrayh wrote: post #140

This is the paradox of tolerance. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paradox_of_tolerance Each of Chicago Review's two choices (to publish, or not to publish) will generate disapproval. My personal view is that deplatforming intolerance is ok -- that the Chicago Review are right to deplatform intolerance. Was Kunin's article intolerant and who decides? I have no idea, an uninformed opinion at best.

Of course it isn’t; it’s the exact opposite.

Re: On Being Blacklisted

#183

Post by alentist »

phendrenad2 wrote: post #115
rsj_hn wrote: post #14

"“we believe the essay does not align with Chicago Review’s editorial and political agenda.”" It's interesting that some academic literary magazines are now being forced to admit they have political agendas, which is a step in the right direction. People like Kunin are the conscience of our generation, daring to stand up to the mobs and tell the truth - a political act that conflicts with the Chicago Review's agenda.…

> some academic literary magazines are now being forced to admit they have political agendas I think "have political agendas" is a logical leap. If your employees or customers are going to be angry with you for working with someone, you don't work with that person. To go against the wishes of your employees and customers would be having a political agenda.

They literally admitted to it themselves:

we believe the essay does not align with Chicago Review’s editorial and political agenda

Re: On Being Blacklisted

#184

Post by skissane »

threevox wrote: post #57
eli wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How could one possibly publish poetry in a non political way?

If your poetry is political, you're doing it wrong

  THE HEART of the rulers is sick, and the high-priest covers his head:
  For this is the song of the quick that is heard in the ears of the dead.
  The poor and the halt and the blind are keen and mighty and fleet:
  Like the noise of the blowing of wind is the sound of the noise of their feet.
  The wind has the sound of a laugh in the clamour of days and of deeds:
  The priests are scattered like chaff, and the rulers broken like reeds.
Algernon Charles Swinburne, A Song in Time of Revolution. 1860

Re: On Being Blacklisted

#185

Post by pseudalopex »

rayiner wrote: post #126
afutd wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Although I agree with the thrust of your edit, I’d actually be okay with making the swap if a black person from an underprivileged background told me that terms made him uncomfortable. But somehow it’s always a white woman from a privileged background that’s insisting we say allowlist or Latinx.

No joke. I had a very Caucasian woman tell me why she was too “exhausted” to explain to me why America’s treatment of Muslims was abhorrent and damaging. I, an immigrant from a Muslim country who went to college in the south after 9/11, had possessed the temerity to say America had handled 9/11 with far more grace towards its Muslim population than Muslim countries would have done had the shoe been on the other foot,…

Saying Y would be worse than X doesn't justify X.

Are you Muslim or just from a mostly Muslim country?

Many Muslims have said America's treatment of Muslims is abhorrent and damaging. Why should she listen to you over them?

Re: On Being Blacklisted

#186

Post by antihero »

slibhb wrote: post #105
richardwhiuk wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Lots of the best (by a number of standards) poetry ever written is deeply political.

Lots of art is political. But what makes art good has nothing to do with its politics.

Absolutely untrue. Art is something that can make you think and elicit emotion.

Re: On Being Blacklisted

#187

Post by antihero »

cm2187 wrote: post #67
dkdk8283 wrote: post #45

Let’s please collectively agree to abolish cancel culture. Opposing ideas cause growth. Singular ideologies do not lead to growth or change.

Cancel culture is only the symptom of those institutions being taken over by ideological extremists. The solution is competition. Universities are destroying their brand with those positions. I am probably not the only engineer unimpressed by slogans like “decolonise maths”, and I would think twice before hiring graduates that excelled in that environment. Likewise, companies that push those ideologies should be boyc…

> I don’t want to buy razor blades from a manufacturer who calls me a rapist. I just switched.

Seriously? Which brand called you a rapist?

Also if you aren't using safety razors and cheap sharp blades like Astras then you're already wasting ££ so I cannot consider you truely rational

Re: On Being Blacklisted

#188

Post by antihero »

dkdk8283 wrote: post #45

Let’s please collectively agree to abolish cancel culture. Opposing ideas cause growth. Singular ideologies do not lead to growth or change.

Not all the time, the problem is that certain viewpoints and grifters are so incessant and relentless with their garbage, most likely because being controversial is a cheap trick to making a lot of money, that there needs to be some filter or management to prevent actual discussion from being drowned out.

Imagine we invited Stormfront to join HN for a day? Would these opposing ideas cause growth? Of course not.

Re: On Being Blacklisted

#189

Post by antihero »

schoen wrote: post #153
monkeypizza wrote: post #113

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, this is a coherent, stable proposal. For a tolerant society to adopt complete tolerance, even of things designed to destroy their society, is unstable. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paradox_of_tolerance

I'm kind of surprised at how the "paradox of tolerance" has gained so much currency in the past few years as if it were an obviously-established principle in free speech theory or something. In the recent past, this idea was much less accepted in the U.S. because it was not assumed that allowing people who were intolerant in some regard to express their ideas (or people who were hostile in some regard to U.S. society…

> Similarly, the ACLU defending Nazis in Skokie (etc.) didn't think that it was a paradox to defend and tolerate people who themselves would not tolerate the ACLU or other minorities. They believed that those people had pretty crummy ideas and that most Americans would see through those ideas.

Yet it seems like, in this day and age, they don't. The propaganda machines are on scales and intensities that most people's minds don't appear able to keep up.

Re: On Being Blacklisted

#190

Post by BitwiseFool »

kstrauser wrote: post #34
jariel wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Except the author did no such thing. A corporate entity IP owner did. Those entities are subject to a myriad of whims, much the same as Nike or Apple. It's laughably hypocritical in an era where pop culture is full of all kinds of 'offensive' material. Go here, right now [1] to the Billboard Hot 100 and cruise down that list. Over 50% of those songs are chock full of brutal misogyny, racism, sexism, violence, and all…

> Except the author did no such thing. A corporate entity IP owner did. The author is dead, so couldn't. The IP is owned by Dr. Seuss Enterprises, which was founded by his wife. It's not some random corporation who swooped up the copyrights at an auction, but literally the organization created to manage them. > Go here, right now [1] to the Billboard Hot 100 and cruise down that list. Presumably those IP holders have…

There are plenty of books that are no longer being published, but you are not prevented from buying them on eBay. The issue is more than active publication, it's access.
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