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Solzhenitsyn’s Rosary (2016)

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Re: Solzhenitsyn’s Rosary (2016)

#11

Post by throwawaysea »

UncleOxidant wrote: post #8
bjt2n3904 wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Solzhenitsyn's name has come up several times in various things I've read this month. I don't think it's a coincidence. I purchased his book off Amazon a few weeks ago, thinking it wouldn't be long until they started delisting books. Now all this nonsense with Dr. Seuss. One quote, loosely paraphrased from another book I'm struggling to finish -- an interview with survivors of post WW2 totalitarianism. One of them wa…

> I purchased his book off Amazon a few weeks ago, thinking it wouldn't be long until they started delisting books. Now all this nonsense with Dr. Seuss. Except it was the copyright holder of the Dr. Seuss books that decided to withdraw these books. Not the government or sellers like Amazon. It's more of an argument for reducing the length of copyright in the US rather than some sort of ominous supression of free spe…

Personally I don't think the fact that it was a copyright holder makes this outcome much better. These publishers are also subject to the mob pressure that comes from the long march through the institutions (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_long_march_through_the_ins...). A few activist employees can force internal decision making, because everyone else might be afraid to speak against due to the threat of cancel culture - that is, they don't want to get fired because for speaking against the excesses of progressive left ideology.

Just like with tech companies' internal political culture or newsroom revolts sweeping all the major journalism houses, publishers have themselves experienced both internal employee activism and external pressures. Consider for example, that employees in Penguin House were in literal tears (https://reason.com/2020/11/25/jordan-peterson-12-rules-for-l...) because they decided to publish Jordan Peterson's new book. Or observe how activists associated with Rose City Antifa in Portland, Oregon tried to stop a local landmark book store (Powell's) from selling Andy Ngo's book "Unmasked", which details the criminal activity of local antifa cells (https://pen.org/press-release/pen-america-supports-powells-d...).

Book burning was once a far-fetched joke but it really is very much upon us. And it doesn't have to come in the literal form of a book burning. It's enough for the threat of "cancellation" to force the hand of authors, publishers, or retailers.

Re: Solzhenitsyn’s Rosary (2016)

#12

Post by UncleOxidant »

mushbino wrote: post #9
throwawaysea wrote: post #2

The Gulag Archipelago is one of those pieces I wish everyone would read. These days the lessons of socialism and communism are lost on a younger generation that seems blind to what Marxism led to, and how much suffering and death it caused. The ideologies behind these government systems require authoritarianism, from the state and the mob. It requires a single ideology to win with everything else stamped out, and thi…

You're commenting as if Capitalism and Imperialism are squeaky clean, which is incredibly far from the truth. Just to give a little more context, Solzhenitsyn was a Fascist who supported the Germans during WWII and openly supported Franco in Spain. He was also a notorious anti-semite even at a time when anti-semitism was punishable by death in Soviet Russia. I've read Gulag Archipelago and he's a pretty good writer,…

> In her 1974 memoir, ''Sanya: My Life with Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn'' (Bobbs-Merrill), she wrote

Was she still living in Russia at the time this was published?

Re: Solzhenitsyn’s Rosary (2016)

#13

Post by shimonabi »

throwawaysea wrote: post #2

The Gulag Archipelago is one of those pieces I wish everyone would read. These days the lessons of socialism and communism are lost on a younger generation that seems blind to what Marxism led to, and how much suffering and death it caused. The ideologies behind these government systems require authoritarianism, from the state and the mob. It requires a single ideology to win with everything else stamped out, and thi…

There are different kinds of socialism, like there are different kinds of capitalism.

The author lived in the most extreme one and his writings show that.

I can tell you that from my personal experience that the time after the fall of communism and before the agents of capitalism gained power in society was the most free time in my life.

Re: Solzhenitsyn’s Rosary (2016)

#14

Post by mushbino »

poweronselftest wrote: post #10
mushbino wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're commenting as if Capitalism and Imperialism are squeaky clean, which is incredibly far from the truth. Just to give a little more context, Solzhenitsyn was a Fascist who supported the Germans during WWII and openly supported Franco in Spain. He was also a notorious anti-semite even at a time when anti-semitism was punishable by death in Soviet Russia. I've read Gulag Archipelago and he's a pretty good writer,…

> What is a gulag? It's a penal colony or a labor camp or a prison. If only. Never thought I would see gulag apologism, but I am not surprised. I guess https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Varlam_Shalamov was a facist anti-semite, too. PS. Nice touch with the whattaboutism. PSS. As a Jew I just love when antisemitism is invoked in character assassinations. Makes me feel loved, valued and most all: protected! ;)

How is this whataboutism? I'm in no way apologizing for gulags, but the "Socialism and Marxism always leads to utter destruction" take is so tired and insulting to those who actually study history and political science.

Also, this "Ultimately that adherence to a singular ideology, with aggressive suppression of all others, leads to every subsequent horror." You do realize this holds true under every economic system, right. It was true under feudalism and it's absolutely true under Capitalism. That's kind of the nature of a system.

Edit: The point of bringing up the anti-semitism and Fascism was to show that his views, pretty much all around, were strongly forbidden in the Soviet Union at the time. Absolute free speech works fairly well in America, but you have to understand that at the time in that part of the world there were many different cultures with high-tensions sharing the same space. If hate speech was allowed it would result in non-stop war. The same thing was the case in Yugoslavia where hate speech was strongly punished and it served the purpose of keeping the peace, until Tito died. The history of the Balkans illustrates this point quite well. Yes, we all love free speech, but endless wars are good for nobody.

FWIW, I've traveled through all of these countries extensively and Russian is my second language. I also speak a bit of Serbo-Croatian. Traveling around and speaking with these people changed the lens with which I view these things. There is more nuance than words can describe and the history is complicated to say the least.

Re: Solzhenitsyn’s Rosary (2016)

#15

Post by mushbino »

UncleOxidant wrote: post #12
mushbino wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're commenting as if Capitalism and Imperialism are squeaky clean, which is incredibly far from the truth. Just to give a little more context, Solzhenitsyn was a Fascist who supported the Germans during WWII and openly supported Franco in Spain. He was also a notorious anti-semite even at a time when anti-semitism was punishable by death in Soviet Russia. I've read Gulag Archipelago and he's a pretty good writer,…

> In her 1974 memoir, ''Sanya: My Life with Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn'' (Bobbs-Merrill), she wrote Was she still living in Russia at the time this was published?

I believe she was.

Re: Solzhenitsyn’s Rosary (2016)

#16

Post by WaxProlix »

throwawaysea wrote: post #2

The Gulag Archipelago is one of those pieces I wish everyone would read. These days the lessons of socialism and communism are lost on a younger generation that seems blind to what Marxism led to, and how much suffering and death it caused. The ideologies behind these government systems require authoritarianism, from the state and the mob. It requires a single ideology to win with everything else stamped out, and thi…

It's an interesting book and (I think) well written, but we should take care not to take it as factual. Gulags were real and very awful places, but Solzhenitsyn wasn't writing a history or a scientifically investigated piece. He was writing material for future novels, and much of the book is fabrication. His wife's autobiography (and other places) confirm what's a fairly widespread view outside of the OECD world. She called western responses to it "overestimated and wrongly appraised", and mentions that Solzhenitsyn himself never viewed the book as "historical research, or scientific research, but [rather more] a 'camp folklore' collection".

Solzhenitsyn wrote a lot and TGA seems like a melting pot of his own anticommunist beliefs, his experiences under Soviet rule, and an interest in his craft as a writer. But it's not 100% a historically accurate book.

Obviously (shouldn't have to say it but who knows these days) gulags were bad and I wouldn't want to be placed into one etc. I do however think we do ourselves a disservice when taking untrue accounts as factual, as is the case in a lot of western treatment of Soviet leaders (esp. Stalin; Lenin seems to get more of a pass).

Re: Solzhenitsyn’s Rosary (2016)

#17

Post by evv555 »

mushbino wrote: post #9
throwawaysea wrote: post #2

The Gulag Archipelago is one of those pieces I wish everyone would read. These days the lessons of socialism and communism are lost on a younger generation that seems blind to what Marxism led to, and how much suffering and death it caused. The ideologies behind these government systems require authoritarianism, from the state and the mob. It requires a single ideology to win with everything else stamped out, and thi…

You're commenting as if Capitalism and Imperialism are squeaky clean, which is incredibly far from the truth. Just to give a little more context, Solzhenitsyn was a Fascist who supported the Germans during WWII and openly supported Franco in Spain. He was also a notorious anti-semite even at a time when anti-semitism was punishable by death in Soviet Russia. I've read Gulag Archipelago and he's a pretty good writer,…

[flagged]

Re: Solzhenitsyn’s Rosary (2016)

#18

Post by mushbino »

throwawaysea wrote: post #11
UncleOxidant wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I purchased his book off Amazon a few weeks ago, thinking it wouldn't be long until they started delisting books. Now all this nonsense with Dr. Seuss. Except it was the copyright holder of the Dr. Seuss books that decided to withdraw these books. Not the government or sellers like Amazon. It's more of an argument for reducing the length of copyright in the US rather than some sort of ominous supression of free spe…

Personally I don't think the fact that it was a copyright holder makes this outcome much better. These publishers are also subject to the mob pressure that comes from the long march through the institutions ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_long_march_through_the_ins... ). A few activist employees can force internal decision making, because everyone else might be afraid to speak against due to the threat of cancel…

Times change and sometimes things that were once acceptable are no longer. Can you comment on this image from one of the books the publisher stopped printing: https://i.insider.com/4f6c8135eab8eae014000062?width=1100&fo...

Why should a company still feel like this is appropriate to publish?

Or this image: https://www.nepm.org/sites/wfcr/files/styles/medium/public/2...

Should we still be publishing this: https://imgur.com/ykQpXON

Re: Solzhenitsyn’s Rosary (2016)

#19

Post by JPKab »

poweronselftest wrote: post #10
mushbino wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're commenting as if Capitalism and Imperialism are squeaky clean, which is incredibly far from the truth. Just to give a little more context, Solzhenitsyn was a Fascist who supported the Germans during WWII and openly supported Franco in Spain. He was also a notorious anti-semite even at a time when anti-semitism was punishable by death in Soviet Russia. I've read Gulag Archipelago and he's a pretty good writer,…

> What is a gulag? It's a penal colony or a labor camp or a prison. If only. Never thought I would see gulag apologism, but I am not surprised. I guess https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Varlam_Shalamov was a facist anti-semite, too. PS. Nice touch with the whattaboutism. PSS. As a Jew I just love when antisemitism is invoked in character assassinations. Makes me feel loved, valued and most all: protected! ;)

The comment you are replying to was rife with absolute inaccuracies. I can assure you you won't get anywhere trying to argue against that person.

Solzhenitsyn was imprisoned by Stalin because while on the front lines fighting against the Nazis he wrote a letter that was intercepted with statements in it critical of Stalin's poor execution in supplying the army. The parent commenter doesn't even get this basic fact right and flips it on its head. Denial effects like this are the mark of a true ideologue, and as you pointed out the whataboutism is also a tale for cognitive dissonance. And the dismissive attitude towards gulags is also indicative of somebody shutting out information that would undermine a fragile ego clinging to ideology for purpose.

Re: Solzhenitsyn’s Rosary (2016)

#20

Post by bordercases »

shimonabi wrote: post #13
throwawaysea wrote: post #2

The Gulag Archipelago is one of those pieces I wish everyone would read. These days the lessons of socialism and communism are lost on a younger generation that seems blind to what Marxism led to, and how much suffering and death it caused. The ideologies behind these government systems require authoritarianism, from the state and the mob. It requires a single ideology to win with everything else stamped out, and thi…

There are different kinds of socialism, like there are different kinds of capitalism. The author lived in the most extreme one and his writings show that. I can tell you that from my personal experience that the time after the fall of communism and before the agents of capitalism gained power in society was the most free time in my life.

An anarchist, then?
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