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Four times I felt discriminated against for being a female developer

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Re: Four times I felt discriminated against for being a female developer

#311
post #263
post #186

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I always thought that the words of Martin Luther King: "I have a dream that my four little children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin, but by the content of their character." was a good approach? I recently heard a radio interview where the guest explained that part of her character was "blackness", and she was offended by intimations that her character could be…

>Taken at face value it necessarily implies a partial refutation of some of MLK's premises Having a self respect for your cultural identity doesn't mean you prefer to be judged by the color of your skin rather than your character.

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Re: Four times I felt discriminated against for being a female developer

#313
post #192

"I believe everyone can become a good professional as long as they’re willing to learn." This isn't sexist. I've been told this, and I've told this to junior engineers of both genders. It's not even just a stretch to claim it's sexist, it's ridiculous to. The remark about prioritizing is actually more troublesome, and entirely independent of this comment. "Some things went well, others not so well. I am not giving yo…

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Re: Four times I felt discriminated against for being a female developer

#315
post #95

I'm a light skinned male. I'm also a Choctaw Native American. In my senior year of college in 2004 I applied to dozens of companies. I never got a single response. I decided to try an experiment - I applied to IBM and, for the first time, I selected "Native American" as my ethnicity. Within 24 hours I got an email inviting me to a special, all expenses paid IBM recruiting event held for Native Americans in Albuquerqu…

While I'm your everyday white guy, I've never understood why people among minority groups would accept this completely over-the-top pandering. It's a form of shaming and it's dehumanizing. Who wants this?

You serious? I’d take the “shame and dehumanisation” of being hired for my innate attributes rather than skill for a big tech company salary for sure. Wouldn’t even have to think about it.

Hell, I’m mostly learning software dev because it seems like the most straight forward to way to turn my above average intelligence in to money. I’d love to cut out the middle man and just receive a high iq allowance.

Re: Four times I felt discriminated against for being a female developer

#316
post #309

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Lack of proposed actionable solutions does not imply a lack of problem. Especially when just convincing people that there is a problem will help avoid the problem (i.e., if everyone agreed racism exists, and is a problem, there would be fewer implicit biases coming into play). Sure; you can create hiring processes that hide as much identifying information as possible. That doesn't address the issue in other parts of…

>That doesn't address the issue in other parts of the workforce though ... nor the biases coworkers/etc may have. It also doesn't force others to adopt the solution you propose. Of course not, but it's a start. Getting X hired and in the door, means we can at least have the opportunity to tackle problems downstream. Hoping that we can solve X-ism (for the points you mention) and then everything will magically be fixe…

We also have different people now from 20 years ago. And our understanding of how to handle diversity has evolved too.

But, yes, generally I think we're in agreement. I'm mostly just responding that "I'm colorblind", while possibly true, implicitly is distancing yourself from the problem. It's effectively saying "I don't recognize your skin color, so any experiences you ascribe to it will be alien to me". No, recognize color, accept that a person's experiences will be different from yours, especially those tied to skin color, and that your own experiences can't really touch that; a comment you find inoffensive they might find offensive, and you can't really adjudicate that. Etc.

But, yes, the best thing we can do is encounter those different than us and realize how similar they actually are.

Re: Four times I felt discriminated against for being a female developer

#317

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> One manager asked me "What was it like growing up Native American? Was it hard? Tell me about how hard it was for you." It felt gross. While "diversity via token hires", and "faux-diversity celebrations with folklore food, music, etc" are fake-ass and crinzy, I don't see the manager's question as gross. It's a legitimate question a human being can make to another. We're not just individual snowflakes, we're also pe…

> But really, it's a question one might legitimately ask another they met at a bar or an airplane, or some such... Really? Consider it this way, by substituting x for something that fits for you personally: What was it like growing up x? Was it hard? Tell me about how hard it was for you." How might you feel by the end of the flight?

Like my neighbor is a curious person (perhaps more chatty than I would like)? Between acquaintances the above would be compassionate conversation. Of course in the wrong context many innocuous questions can come off as patronizing, and an employer should ask work-related questions over outside culture questions naturally. However, the plane-neighbor conversation doesn't seem belittling at face value.

Re: Four times I felt discriminated against for being a female developer

#318
post #263
post #186

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I always thought that the words of Martin Luther King: "I have a dream that my four little children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin, but by the content of their character." was a good approach? I recently heard a radio interview where the guest explained that part of her character was "blackness", and she was offended by intimations that her character could be…

>Taken at face value it necessarily implies a partial refutation of some of MLK's premises Having a self respect for your cultural identity doesn't mean you prefer to be judged by the color of your skin rather than your character.

When somebody says, "you can't understand because you don't know what it's like to live as a [insert minority] in a [insert majority] world", they're implicitly saying that someone's empathy and/or analytical insight is constrained by their physical relationship to society. That also implies that someone else's capacities in that regard are necessarily broader than your own. And when people make those arguments without even consideration of a particular person's potentially analogous lived experiences--maybe they lived as some other kind of minority (very often a minority in class dimensions)--then there's the implication that a person's character is so completely shaped by their particular lived experiences (as perceived by others) that we can never consider their arguments and contributions independent of that.

There's nothing new about race essentialism. Anglo-American racial concepts are rooted in pseudo-scientific ideas about biological capacities, but that's a very peculiar flavor of race-ist scholarship. There are plenty of white supremacist groups who argue that equitable integration is impossible for various sociological reasons--i.e. racism cannot be completely extirpated and so will always impose an unacceptable burden on all groups in an attempt to achieve the unachievable, so all groups are better off segregated. But they didn't invent these arguments, either.

These same fatalistic sentiments and conclusions (albeit from a much different perspective) can also be found in the writings of famous black authors such as Malcolm X and Frantz Fanon. They're similarly race essentialist--race may be a cultural construct, but it's a durable one that imposes mutually exclusive options for organizing society, similar to class in the Marxist worldview. Frantz Fanon, who grew up under French Colonialism, does an amazing job articulating the various often mundane ways in which living as a racial minority in society leads (necessarily in his view) to systemic oppression of the self and group. These authors likewise believe that a truly multiracial polity is fundamentally impossible. (In Fanon's broader philosophy, racial fault lines lend themselves to class-based oppression in the vein of Marxist class warfare. An observation echoed by modern black scholars like Cornell West and Adolph Reed Jr.--neither of whom is race essentialist, FWIW, though I think alot of West's nuance is lost on people.) In fact, a significant amount of African-American and, more generally, anti-colonialist literature came to these conclusions. And if you speak to many well-read activist black Americans of a certain generation, you'll find many strongly sympathize with these views. Famously Justice Clarence Thomas is of this view--he opposes all affirmative action and many Civil Rights initiatives because he believes that black Americans will never be able to live as unburdened by race as those in white society, and that in many cases these initiatives ultimately increase that inevitable burden. (IOW, Thomas is resigned to a fundamentally unequal America, and that informs his cost/benefit calculus. Thomas' legal opinions are far more peculiar than his racial fatalism, however.)

I found Frantz Fanon quite enlightening, but I don't accept all his premises and his conclusions. I don't accept them intellectually, and as an American I feel obligated to reject them as anathema to our national moral framework--America may be a doomed experiment, but I have a civic duty to believe there's a way forward. My takeaway from Fanon, et al is an acceptance of the very deep, very systemic problems that multiracial polities face (in many ways no less today than 60 years ago); and an acceptance that the answers to those problems are still nowhere to be found. Fanon (better than any other author) not only taught me to recognize the depth and breadth of racism, but convinced me to be extremely wary of claims that it has been lifted. So I accept many of the premises, but not some crucial conclusory ones--e.g. that the absence of answers is evidence of absence. From my perspective it's actually not hard to see how anyone, black, white, or w'ever, could easily make the jump from these intractable dilemmas to the view that we simply cannot ever separate racial identity from our political character. (By political character I mean to say that while we may all be equal in God's eyes, such platitudes have no substantive meaning or application in the real world.)

IMO, we live in an age where we've inherited many concepts from the radical literature of the 1960s and 1970s, but without an appreciation of the context or the consequences. I have no reason to doubt that the radio speaker more-or-less meant what she said regarding her character, and intended it to mean precisely that her perspectives on race (in particular, the burdens and graces of living as a black woman) are intrinsically out of the reach of contemplation by others and therefore of more value in the political debate because of her lived experience as a black person. That is actually a quite common refrain these days. I even sympathize with this. In many ways it's a reaction to white people (or some other majority or power-dominate group--these same dynamics play out in multiethnic societies everywhere) systematically dismissing and discounting claims of racism by rationalizing their inability to see that racism as a consequence of adopting a color-blind mentality. In that vein, I can totally appreciate the use of radical leftist race essentialist concepts from the 1960s to argue that, hey, race and therefore racism is more than skin deep.

OTOH, if you confuse such pragmatic, matter-of-fact arguments with a broader cultural moral philosophy, then you're going to end up precisely where authors like Frantz Fanon did. And unfortunately I think a lot of people do precisely that, without an appreciation for where that ultimately leads. People want to be heard and recognized, and unfortunately sometimes resort to contradictory conceptual frameworks.

Re: Four times I felt discriminated against for being a female developer

#319
> I have never considered that “having chemistry with the team” could be a reason for being let go.

That about sums up these accounts of "discrimination." "I got a job because I was a girl! Which I'm totally okay with, except that I didn't know I was getting a job because I'm a girl, and that makes it discrimination."

Re: Four times I felt discriminated against for being a female developer

#320
post #310
post #277

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Respectfully, this is the wrong way to look at the problem. It’s true, objectively, that there are fewer minority/female CS graduates. But there’s no way that gets better if a person who is “not a subject matter expert” gets dismissed. That person needs to be trained. If they want to be expert at that subject, we as an industry need to be able to help them get there. Increasingly I believe the problem with diversity…

> If you’re a woman and you want to be a coder but all you hear about is hell stories, why would you sign up for that major I think this is a bit more complex; think of something like Revenge of the Nerds where computer peeps are all socially inept (sometimes borderline creepy) otherworldly nerds whose only interest in life is computers. Would you want to work in an environment like that? I wouldn't. And luckily I do…

Fully agreed, there's a whole lot going on beyond stories of bad experiences. It's a complicated issue, I just think we're focusing on the wrong problem if we're just looking at this from a pipeline point of view and not asking what factors contribute to the pipeline being sub-optimal. Too often I hear, "women just like people more than men," and other similar BS, which lets us as an industry off the hook for creating sub-par environments.
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