Four times I felt discriminated against for being a female developer • Hacker News Board

Re: Four times I felt discriminated against for being a female developer

#281

Post by arp242 » Tue, Mar 09, 2021, 1:02 AM UTC

ibudiallo wrote: post #132

I wrote about my experience as a black developer not too long ago [1]. At first, you are shocked when you hear some insensitive comments made around you. Then you realize no one else even notices, so it must be something wrong with you. Eventually you ignore it. When someone says something stupid, you rationalize it and move on. After all, you are only just here to do a job. But then you get angry. You are angry at e…

> "Hey Carl didn't mean to offend you. It was just that one time." What they don't understand is that you've been hearing the same stupid jokes or comments for 15 years in your career.

Tangentially related: when I got a new tattoo a few years back at an artist I never been before I made some joke that tattoo artists are like dentists: they love to inflict pain on people. I immediately realized that he must have heard the same hundreds of times before, and that I said something pretty bloody stupid.

You're up close and personal for a few hours with a stranger; I'm not shy or socially awkward, but I'm also not especially outgoing; just average. Sitting in silence can be awkward for some human psychological reason, and you feel the pressure to say ... something, anything. Reflecting on my own behaviour since this, I've noticed it's in those kind of situations where I say the silliest things: when you feel a pressure to say something but you're not sure what.

I think many probably have the same experience to some degree getting a haircut or the like (although haircuts usually don't take 3 hours; or at least, mine don't).

I'd certainly like to think I wouldn't be the kind of person who would "the same stupid jokes or comments" that you mentioned – but I can point at least to once case where I've done so. There are probably others that I've forgotten.

My point is that it's hard to understand how something is perceived by someone else, especially when their experience is very different from yours, whether that's a tattoo artist or a black programmer.

An idea I had a while ago is a platform where people can post personal stories to expand on these kind of things and how it's perceived by them (about a wide variety of topics). "I didn't mean anything by it" comes off as rather weak, but it's my impression it is actually true in quite a few cases, especially these relatively minor ones: many people just don't understand what it is to be in the shoes of another person. You really need to explain this, and just saying "that's racist" isn't enough.

P.S. Don't get your ribs tattooed people. Good grief that one hurt so much more than any of the others.

Re: Four times I felt discriminated against for being a female developer

#282

Post by tonystubblebine » Tue, Mar 09, 2021, 1:04 AM UTC

traverseda wrote: post #210

tonystubblebine wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The reaction you had resonated with me in that it's the feeling I most want to avoid giving someone else. I'm a white male hiring manager who is often incorporating explicit diversity/inclusion strategies into work. It's tricky--like tap dancing around all the ways that the work can go wrong. And this is one I overindex for. I never want someone to think they are a token. IMO, there are five main motivations for havi…

>One is legal, to avoid breaking a law or facing a lawsuit. I don't really understand this. Isn't any kind of race based discrimination going to potentially cause legal liability? At the end of the day you're advocating for a policy of race/gender based discrimination, and I don't really get why you'd think it wouldn't be opening yourself up to liability with programs like these? Have you actually talked to a lawyer…

I don’t know anything about IBMs situation. But for me, a much smaller company, there’s a difference between saying you will only hire a Native American and saying you have intentionally chosen to put up a hiring booth at a Native American conference. In practice they have similar outcomes but the first is illegal, as you say, and the second isn’t. Every hiring pipeline will have demographic biases in it. And there is no law saying you have to investigate every single pipeline. But in practice how you choose your pipelines plays a big role in the demographics of your hires. I think too that this is not discrimination because it is merit based. I’m saying that because of other people’s discrimination you could probably operate on a valid business ROI hypothesis that choosing more diverse pipelines is a better use of a hiring managers time and money.

Re: Four times I felt discriminated against for being a female developer

#283

Post by asdff » Tue, Mar 09, 2021, 1:05 AM UTC

RulingWalnut wrote: post #50

Very much not challenging the experiences in this post but I will say: “I believe everyone can become a good professional as long as they’re willing to learn.” was most likely speaking to her youth than her femininity. Source: Myself as someone who has given advice to a lot of different interns/new grads along the same exact lines.

Reading between the lines, that says you aren't a good professional right now and have a lot to learn. That would be fine to tell to your nephew sitting on your knee or an undergrad you are mentoring, but I wouldn't say something like that to a coworker, that's being a jerk. If they got the job, clearly they are professional enough to work at your holy megacorp.

Re: Four times I felt discriminated against for being a female developer

#284

Post by pvaldes » Tue, Mar 09, 2021, 1:06 AM UTC

nzmsv wrote: post #229

conception wrote: post #219

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You seem very upset that IBM is trying to give jobs to a group that has had a persistent lack of opportunity. Congrats that you’re rich and well connected, but you’re exceptional in this regard.

Isn't it a bit weird to have someone who is not Native American (you) tell an actual Native American how they should feel and what kind of experiences they are supposed to have had? I would guess that the subset of Native Americans who have a chance of getting the IBM job are more like the OP and less like the ones you are picturing. But no, instead it's "how dare you think our cringeworthy efforts to make you feel i…

> Isn't it a bit weird to have someone who is not Native American tell an actual Native American how they should feel.

Not. Human experience is universal. Every single human in the planet can understand how other humans feel. We all have experienced similar events before and can provide solid advice about it to fellow humans.

"You can't understand me, because I'm ... (native /black / woman / trans / philatelic...) and you aren't" is a very popular opinion. Very popular, very gratifying, and totally wrong.

Re: Four times I felt discriminated against for being a female developer

#285

Post by hearmeout123123 » Tue, Mar 09, 2021, 1:06 AM UTC

rsweeney21 wrote: post #241

conception wrote: post #219

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You seem very upset that IBM is trying to give jobs to a group that has had a persistent lack of opportunity. Congrats that you’re rich and well connected, but you’re exceptional in this regard.

Yes, all us Native Americans are poor and need special help. The ones that don't are the exception. This is literally the definition of racism.

But it's okay because racism has been redefined and therefore your definition of racism is no longer valid.

Re: Four times I felt discriminated against for being a female developer

#286

Post by joshgoldman » Tue, Mar 09, 2021, 1:07 AM UTC

Wow she seems toxic, feel bad for the people who hired her and the old coworkers

Re: Four times I felt discriminated against for being a female developer

#287

Post by xyzzyz » Tue, Mar 09, 2021, 1:08 AM UTC

asdff wrote: post #271

worker767424 wrote: post #238

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Hiring more black people It's not like there's a large, untapped pool of talented black software engineers. I'm at a large tech company. There was a team I worked with for a big with some really talented people, the sort of team where really smart domain experts go. There was a black guy on it who asked questions showing he wasn't an obviously talented domain expert. I found out he was recruited for coming from an…

On the other hand, California is 37% white. The University of California freshman class for 2019 was 22% white. So why are tech companies so strikingly white? It makes no sense unless you admit there is a racial bias in the hiring process for knowledge workers.

"Strikingly white"? Tech industry in California is probably the least white white collar industry in this country.

Re: Four times I felt discriminated against for being a female developer

#288

Post by soulofmischief » Tue, Mar 09, 2021, 1:09 AM UTC

joshz404 wrote: post #264

soulofmischief wrote: post #254

I'm sorry, but... > I have never considered that “having chemistry with the team” could be a reason for being let go. When you're working in a startup with 5 people and you're not in sync with their personalities, it can be a major drag on everyone. Having had to see people let go in startups for simply not fitting in, this has nothing to do with you being a woman and to frame it that way reduces the effectiveness of…

You're excluding this part: > I had never received any feedback indicating my performance was poor. In fact, it was exactly the other way around: I’ve never had a role that was such a good fit for my expertise before. So I asked if he could detail better where I failed. He refused to.. It is completely unprofessional to fire someone having never given any feedback. Startup or not.

I wasn't even necessarily defending the practice, just explaining the reason for it and why it's universal.

I agree there should be better feedback. If they are annoying, have the decency to tell them why and point out a few things so they don't go from job to job wondering why they don't fit in.

Re: Four times I felt discriminated against for being a female developer

#289

Post by worker767424 » Tue, Mar 09, 2021, 1:12 AM UTC

asdff wrote: post #271

worker767424 wrote: post #238

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Hiring more black people It's not like there's a large, untapped pool of talented black software engineers. I'm at a large tech company. There was a team I worked with for a big with some really talented people, the sort of team where really smart domain experts go. There was a black guy on it who asked questions showing he wasn't an obviously talented domain expert. I found out he was recruited for coming from an…

On the other hand, California is 37% white. The University of California freshman class for 2019 was 22% white. So why are tech companies so strikingly white? It makes no sense unless you admit there is a racial bias in the hiring process for knowledge workers.

> 37%...22%

Metrics for particular degrees would be more helpful. Some of those 22% are in accounting.

> So why are tech companies so strikingly white

Um, what? Maybe for early-stage startups. If you'd said "strikingly white, Indian, and East Asian," I'd agree.

Re: Four times I felt discriminated against for being a female developer

#290

Post by bena » Tue, Mar 09, 2021, 1:13 AM UTC

ipaddr wrote: post #149

munificent wrote: post #118

Earlier quoted context omitted.

All of this sounds horribly cringe-inducing and I don't fault you at all for walking away from IBM. At the same time, I can't help but look at this from an iterated organizational perspective. Let's say you had taken the offer at IBM. Next year, IBM does the recruiting event. But this time they have a Native American employee, you, that they can talk to about how to reach out to that group. So it's a little less awkw…

Just hire based on skill / experience and don't not hire someone because they are a minority. Basic fair hiring goes a long way. If you want more diverse candidates advertise in more diverse places. To go through some cringe-inducing ordeal is not helpful. People want to be judged based on their skills not skin / gender.

Ideally, yes. But the problem is that our implicit biases affect how we view potential candidates.

Certain groups need the chance to prove themselves. If certain groups aren't fairly represented, then it does pay to prefer to hire from those groups when everything else is roughly equal.

I do find it hard to believe that "the best" candidate is more often than not a straight white man.