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Four times I felt discriminated against for being a female developer

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Re: Four times I felt discriminated against for being a female developer

#241

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The systemic bias I faced was that people assumed I was poor, didn't have resources, wealth or contacts because I am a Native American.

You seem very upset that IBM is trying to give jobs to a group that has had a persistent lack of opportunity. Congrats that you’re rich and well connected, but you’re exceptional in this regard.

Yes, all us Native Americans are poor and need special help. The ones that don't are the exception.

This is literally the definition of racism.

Re: Four times I felt discriminated against for being a female developer

#242

>I have never considered that “having chemistry with the team” could be a reason for being let go. That's what worries me too. I like to throw a racist jokes, especially about my own nation from time to time and I guess I'd have hard time in corpos and companies like faang because polacks tend to lack of thick skin /s

> I like to throw a racist jokes, especially about my own nation from time to time Do we really have to explain why that's inappropriate?

Go ahead

I view this as a kind of self-criticism, awarness that your country ain't as perfect as the gov paints it and so on

Re: Four times I felt discriminated against for being a female developer

#243
post #235
post #192

"I believe everyone can become a good professional as long as they’re willing to learn." This isn't sexist. I've been told this, and I've told this to junior engineers of both genders. It's not even just a stretch to claim it's sexist, it's ridiculous to. The remark about prioritizing is actually more troublesome, and entirely independent of this comment. "Some things went well, others not so well. I am not giving yo…

The "willing to learn" case was construed as sexist since she was a diversity hire who did not undergo the same hiring process as her colleagues. While the double standard may have given her an advantage in being hired, it was a disadvantage with respect to her future prospects. The company did not know how to utilize her strengths nor what weaknesses had to be addressed. In effect, they abdicated responsibility for…

Plenty of other things she notes were sexist; pointing out that one is just absurd. It's more or less the advice senior staff are encouraged to give junior staff regardless of context in almost every manager/senior training program I've ever been in.

I understand the argument you're making (that in this context it's sexist, even if it's not sexist in other contexts), I just completely disagree with it.

Re: Four times I felt discriminated against for being a female developer

#244

>I have never considered that “having chemistry with the team” could be a reason for being let go. That's what worries me too. I like to throw a racist jokes, especially about my own nation from time to time and I guess I'd have hard time in corpos and companies like faang because polacks tend to lack of thick skin /s

Racist “jokes” make people uncomfortable because it’s directly adjacent to racist insults, racist hiring/firing practices, and even racist violence. Employers have a duty to workers from employees that are potential threats, and to remove employees that are walking legal liabilities. And that very much includes employees who claim to be “equal-opportunity offenders.” I understand that it’s more complicated when you a…

What's the difference when it comes to racism between Poles and Jews?

Re: Four times I felt discriminated against for being a female developer

#245

Earlier quoted context omitted.

More egalitarian funding will just make the wealthier classes just put their money and students somewhere else. I live in an area with a lot of private and charter schools. This is the mechanism that the community members have evolved to fund+support their children's education directly the way they want. If you try to make people pay for something they don't want to - they'll just find ways around it and you could ev…

Simple. Don't let them. My province has a math education program that would rank amongst #2-3 in the world, and you aren't allowed to run a private school with a different curriculum - at all, beyond a certain amount of enriched tracks that are available to anyone. This also applies to the first few years of college. Result? Everyone gets an amazing education, and you can't pay your way around it. You might say that…

First, that's maybe acceptable if you live in a place with such a great math education program available in the public system, but most of the world does not and limiting the options of people in a region to only attend the public option creates a local maxima.

What if someone were in a region where the math education program was #100 in the world? Would it not be reasonable to want to create a private program providing an education that is capable of producing students that are competitive to those students from your province? What if some parents from your province weren't satisfied with being #2 or #3 and instead want the option to send their kid to a local program competitive with the #1 ranked program in the world?

> and you aren't allowed to run a private school with a different curriculum - at all

That's some Harrison Bergeron level thinking that is blatantly liberty reducing.

You might say that I left off the rest of that statement, "beyond a certain amount of enriched tracks that are available to anyone.", but even that ignores the fact that resources are finite. Parents more invested in their children's futures might be able to pool resources together in the form of a more competitive private program for their children but not have enough resources for all children. One of those finite resources might be the ability to attract enough world class educators and still maintain a low teacher to student ratio that the teachers can have a significant impact on each child.

Re: Four times I felt discriminated against for being a female developer

#246
Some folks are nit-picking about which statements are really sexism and which are more universal. I can understand that but I think a better way for folks to sit with this is to pull back.

Homogeneous cultures are bad at understanding how they seem to outsiders. We all lose the trees in the forest. It's not exclusive to race or gender but it comes it in particular around identities (gender, inexperience, etc) that someone has. It's really easy to say a series of statements that an insider would recognize as referencing one quality (i.e. inexperience) but an outsider could easily mistake for referencing another quality (i.e. gender). In order to learn what insiders mean, you need to be in a space where you can hear what existing insiders mean, which generally means insiders should take care with their language.

This is one of the reasons I get suspicious any time "cultural fit" is brought up. It's often talked about as if the existing team has a 'good' culture, and new people might disrupt this existing good culture. However, whenever we discover a cultural mismatch between a new colleague and the existing norm, I suspect what is revealed is that the existing 'good' culture is hostile to certain other cultures. Sometimes that's a good thing (coders should be hostile to people who don't think typos should matter), but generally you want to avoid it.

To put it another way: people from new backgrounds let you see your organization from a different angle. It's a rare and valuable service. If folks are going around and saying things that are earnestly meant to be supportive, but are being heard as diminutive or reductive, that's valuable data! You can learn to not do that! Take the feelings of outsiders who you would like to be insiders seriously - as primary source data - in order to grow your org beyond what it is now.

Re: Four times I felt discriminated against for being a female developer

#247

I wrote about my experience as a black developer not too long ago [1]. At first, you are shocked when you hear some insensitive comments made around you. Then you realize no one else even notices, so it must be something wrong with you. Eventually you ignore it. When someone says something stupid, you rationalize it and move on. After all, you are only just here to do a job. But then you get angry. You are angry at e…

I am not sure mate. Yes, some things you mention sound annoying and insulting but still. You are an immigrant to the US, got a non US education, you got a job in Silicon Valley and you made it.

Honestly, I feel like I received more discrimination as a white, western European in the US than you did.

When I was still working in a university lab in the US, it was extremely diverse, with a strong bias/over-representation of Chinese people. But it was still diverse in skin color, heritage, religion, sex or whatever. I never saw any "insensitive comments" there, at least none that were meant in a bad way.

Re: Four times I felt discriminated against for being a female developer

#248

Two things some people have difficulty differentiating between: - Being discriminated or insulted for being X vs: - Made fun or insulted with reference to X Not getting a job, a promotion, or even simply heard by your colleagues because you're X is discrimination. Being treated worse because of X is discrimination. Being called anti-X slurs by people considering X being inferior is racism. But being insulted or made…

As a white, straight, cisgender, male, , I can't say I've ever been "insulted with reference to X" in the workplace.

The "let me explain discrimination to you" responses from white men in this thread is really cringe-inducing.

Re: Four times I felt discriminated against for being a female developer

#249

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The systemic bias I faced was that people assumed I was poor, didn't have resources, wealth or contacts because I am a Native American.

You seem very upset that IBM is trying to give jobs to a group that has had a persistent lack of opportunity. Congrats that you’re rich and well connected, but you’re exceptional in this regard.

This is a racist view, very “white saviour complex”.

Re: Four times I felt discriminated against for being a female developer

#250

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is an example of a non-diverse company that doesn't understand diversity trying to implement some kind of diversity. I recall these kinds of ham-fisted attempts everywhere in the late 90's. Ironically, this was most likely cringe because there were no minorities on the staff, a consequence of: no diversity. I observed a similar event in the early 90's when a bunch of white folk in HR tried to show off diversity…

> When minorities are made "ambassadors" as though they suddenly speak for EVERYONE in their minority, it is awful, and wrong. People don't get this: "But X minority said it was OK..." No, it takes literal diversity of opinion. Which is why the entire concept of demographics-based "diversity" is such a shambles. The premise is supposed to be that if you get some women and minorities in there then you'll have a divers…

Amen. GE is a perfect example. Lots of different nationalities and skin colors and a solid mix of genders. Every one of them came from well off families, went to elitist universities, came in as interns and worked there thier entire career.

No one was self-made. If you hired in mid-career you were seen as different and if you brought a different point of view they just nodded their heads and basically ignored what you said until you came around to thier point of view. The most non-diverse environment I have ever seen.

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