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Four times I felt discriminated against for being a female developer

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Re: Four times I felt discriminated against for being a female developer

#221
post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While I'm your everyday white guy, I've never understood why people among minority groups would accept this completely over-the-top pandering. It's a form of shaming and it's dehumanizing. Who wants this?

The common minority person hates it usually. The more vocal ones are the people who directly benefit from this system, they effectively have a rent-seeking behavior hidden behind the "diversity" umbrella.

>they effectively have a rent-seeking behavior hidden behind the "diversity" umbrella

It's the Diversity & Inclusion Industrial Complex and it's related to all the other "industrial complexes" that form in that it's just a problem/industry specific manifestation of the Shirky Principle:

https://kk.org/thetechnium/the-shirky-prin/

Re: Four times I felt discriminated against for being a female developer

#222

I'm a light skinned male. I'm also a Choctaw Native American. In my senior year of college in 2004 I applied to dozens of companies. I never got a single response. I decided to try an experiment - I applied to IBM and, for the first time, I selected "Native American" as my ethnicity. Within 24 hours I got an email inviting me to a special, all expenses paid IBM recruiting event held for Native Americans in Albuquerqu…

Have you ever experienced life on a res? If not are you on the Dawes?

Not to fully doubt you but your entire story seems highly unlikely and politically convenient.

Considering the genocide of Native Americans in America, the lack of reparations and the amount of US government monies paid to IBM, native peoples should be rolled to the front of the line YET still hired solely based on their merit.

Rich executives’ kids are rolled to the front of the line for internships, entry level positions and college admissions.

Making sure that natives are considered is the least we can do in making the world more just.

Re: Four times I felt discriminated against for being a female developer

#223
post #177

I'm a light skinned male. I'm also a Choctaw Native American. In my senior year of college in 2004 I applied to dozens of companies. I never got a single response. I decided to try an experiment - I applied to IBM and, for the first time, I selected "Native American" as my ethnicity. Within 24 hours I got an email inviting me to a special, all expenses paid IBM recruiting event held for Native Americans in Albuquerqu…

Have had a former female coworker report a similar experience with IBM more recently than yours, pretty much search and replace "native american" with "female engineer". It was her first career out of college, and she just was not assigned very much duties in her actual team, and her management were far more interested in her DEI work than her engineering work. After a year of going "well maybe they just think I'm to…

If you have a developer you want to keep at all costs, I can imagine it making sense to some people to make that developer's life as easy as possible, including lowering expectations so there is no chance of attrition due to low performance.

Re: Four times I felt discriminated against for being a female developer

#224
I interview candidates for developer positions and the bias against women in the (Australian) developer job market seems plain to me.

I work at a smallish company owned by a bigger group of companies, it is a nice place to work and family friendly, but not at the top of many people's list of exciting places to work.

I don't know all the filters between me and the people submitting their resumes, but there are lots of stages and filters and the process is slow.

As an unexciting company we're not getting the first draft picks from the market. By the time we get internal approval to offer a job to someone, more often than not men have another better offer, women generally don't.

I believe we are able to hire women with skills and experience that would not be as available to us if they were men.

Part of the dynamic would be that our company is very family friendly, and on average women are prioritising that higher than men, and thus on average ranking us higher than men, and therefore some of the bias is structural, rather than being entirely driven by personal misogyny of the recruiters and interviewers.

But that would only help explain the higher availability of excellent female candidates who are prioritising raising a family, it doesn't explain my belief that we have disproportionally been able to hire women with standout level of skills and experience no intention of ever having children*, candidates that I believe would be much less likely to be available to us if they were men.

(* no - I didn't ask that in the interview, I learned that afterwards, when we were work colleagues! )

Re: Four times I felt discriminated against for being a female developer

#225
post #192

"I believe everyone can become a good professional as long as they’re willing to learn." This isn't sexist. I've been told this, and I've told this to junior engineers of both genders. It's not even just a stretch to claim it's sexist, it's ridiculous to. The remark about prioritizing is actually more troublesome, and entirely independent of this comment. "Some things went well, others not so well. I am not giving yo…

>Carl is a difficult person to work with

sidenote - it is still, after more than 2 decades here, amuses me how people are allowed here to be "difficult to work with". Back in Russia - i was an engineer and later manager there - we didn't have "difficult to work with" persons, at least by the end of the first week of employment of any given person.

Re: Four times I felt discriminated against for being a female developer

#226
post #192

"I believe everyone can become a good professional as long as they’re willing to learn." This isn't sexist. I've been told this, and I've told this to junior engineers of both genders. It's not even just a stretch to claim it's sexist, it's ridiculous to. The remark about prioritizing is actually more troublesome, and entirely independent of this comment. "Some things went well, others not so well. I am not giving yo…

>"Some things went well, others not so well. I am not giving you a list specifying each. It has nothing to do with your technical skills; that is normal to have room for improvement. We just feel there is a lack of chemistry with the team."

>

>This is just the way things are, especially in tech. It's not sexist, it's just unfair and dumb and political. And it's applied to all individuals. I've had it applied to me. I've been in management conversations on how to approach others to apply it to. This just isn't sexist.

I think what you're missing is that the reason a statement like this was visited upon you, or whomever poor soul you visted upon in turn, may not be sexist in your case but perhaps so in the author's.

Precisely as you point out: it's dumb and political. The reasoning isn't going to be good and it's going to be opaque. Well, sexism, racism, etc are dumb, political, and opaque.

Re: Four times I felt discriminated against for being a female developer

#227
post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, I'd like to know exactly why that is.

Vouch links appear when a post is [dead]. There are degrees of [flagged] and [flagged][dead] is only the last of them.

it would be nice to be able to vouch for flagged a post before it is dead, to prevent it from dying in the first place.

Re: Four times I felt discriminated against for being a female developer

#228
post #191

I'm a light skinned male. I'm also a Choctaw Native American. In my senior year of college in 2004 I applied to dozens of companies. I never got a single response. I decided to try an experiment - I applied to IBM and, for the first time, I selected "Native American" as my ethnicity. Within 24 hours I got an email inviting me to a special, all expenses paid IBM recruiting event held for Native Americans in Albuquerqu…

I've seen this before with hiring for women. Ending up as a 'diversity hire' can be absolutely awful, especially if you are really out of your depth. Even if you aren't a diversity hire, the fact that it happens a lot can sew that seed in your mind. I think you mostly have two scenarios: 1. An employer has some/much systematic bias in their hiring process and they use this 'positive' bias hiring practice to negate it…

Thank you, I've been looking for a word to describe myself - turns out its "delusional".

I thought we were using the comparison of societal demographics to company demographics to measure how true the "equal opportunity" statement was. You know, like trying to find biases in die rolls - if 6 comes up more than 1, you might have a bias. Having looked at those numbers and found them to show bias, I delusionally thought that maybe we had looked at causes and effects, and found feedback loops like are present in so many complex systems.

Get this though - in the grandeur of my delusion, I thought that studies of these feedback loops we had found:

* people who see others in the same category as them doing a thing, will be more likely to do the thing themselves

* people who exist in a status quo will tend to make decisions preserving the status quo

* complex feedback systems sometimes need sub-optimal input to eventually converge optimally

And that these hiring practices were part of a bigger attempt to use the third bullet to address the other two.

But what do I know, I'm just a delusional fool who gets paid to work on complex systems. I should probably go resign. Anyone reading this - likely another person who works on complex systems - I encourage you to not apply your systems thinking to systems, you might end up delusional too!

Re: Four times I felt discriminated against for being a female developer

#229

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The systemic bias I faced was that people assumed I was poor, didn't have resources, wealth or contacts because I am a Native American.

You seem very upset that IBM is trying to give jobs to a group that has had a persistent lack of opportunity. Congrats that you’re rich and well connected, but you’re exceptional in this regard.

Isn't it a bit weird to have someone who is not Native American (you) tell an actual Native American how they should feel and what kind of experiences they are supposed to have had? I would guess that the subset of Native Americans who have a chance of getting the IBM job are more like the OP and less like the ones you are picturing. But no, instead it's "how dare you think our cringeworthy efforts to make you feel included are cringeworthy" :)

Re: Four times I felt discriminated against for being a female developer

#230

> I was even madder when I found the data science interns hired in a parallel recruitment process had been submitted to technical challenges. That's the miracle of "affirmative action" or whatever you want to call it. When looking at candidates internally, if a company decides to do affirmative action there are those that you know are there because of their skills (non-diverse individuals) and there are the other one…

We had a great music director once, now world renowned (we never deserved him), who believed in blind as in blindfolded auditions. Whoever the candidates were, whatever their backgrounds and accolades and educations, he didn't care. No one was to know who they were rating, and after a while there were complaints of bias... for talent. During that period, yes, there were more women and people of color chosen than hist…

merit weakens class privilege but it doesn't destroy it. even on tests of merit like the SAT, higher class students usually have advantages in tutoring, more free time to study, etc.

it is certainly still possible for lower class children to get a leg up, but it's still an uphill climb

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