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Bill Gates Says that Bitcoin is bad For the Planet

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Re: Bill Gates Says that Bitcoin is bad For the Planet

#541
There's a bit of a reporting bias when it comes to BTC's (or even crypto itself) environmental impact. We're only able to say "it uses as much electricity as X country" because there's a well-defined ledger of every BTC transaction.

The question is how much non-crypto "conventional" currencies cost the planet.

That being said, BTC probably isn't the "best" cryptocurrency. I'm not sure about the details because I don't know much about this space now, but other commenters have pointed out that it's more efficient for ledgers to record proof of stake rather than proof of work.

Re: Bill Gates Says that Bitcoin is bad For the Planet

#542
post #418

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Fiat currencies are an almost perfect exploitation of humanities fatal flaws (greed, unwillingness to acknowledge externalities - i.e. selfishness). Fractional reserve lending are an almost perfect exploitation of humanities fatal flaws (greed, unwillingness to acknowledge externalities - i.e. selfishness).

The difference is that those things are actually useful. Also, bitcoin is fiat.

Correct, but, it is finite and it cannot be inflated away from you.

Re: Bill Gates Says that Bitcoin is bad For the Planet

#543

There are so many better crypto-currencies. Better for the environment because they use proof-of-stake, and not proof-of-work. Better for users because transactions are confirmed in seconds, not hours, and without the ridiculous fees that Bitcoin has. I think this shows how truly powerful the network effect, and being first to market is. Because without those things, Bitcoin would be nothing.

Another armchair cryptographer on HN who has no idea what they're talking about... somehow this is acceptable when it comes to Bitcoin. I feel like I'm being charitable here but what exists are other cryptocurrencies which trade-off security and/or decentralization in favor of some other properties.

Regarding proof-of-stake for example, I'll defer to this comment: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25007874

Re: Bill Gates Says that Bitcoin is bad For the Planet

#544
post #11

Bitcoin is an almost perfect exploitation of humanities fatal flaws (greed, unwillingness to acknowledge externalities - i.e. selfishness). It's that old SF-trope that the cause of many of humanity's biggest problems is humans.

Not a bitcoin fanboy, but that's a bit strong a statement. What is "greed" versus motivation for innovation? Is innovation rewarded with (taxed, regulated) wealth greed, and if so, is that "bad"? And if it creates Teslas and rockets that land, and robots on Mars that last a year or more analyzing samples, is it a fatal flaw? Some more questions... So let's say BTC is greed - the many financial instruments out there,…

I feel that comments like this are a disservice to HN, for while the comment attempts to sound erudite and logical, it is simply moral relativism in disguise.

"Greed" is neither good nor bad, but instead it is a pathological optimization. Optimizing for profit, by definition, is an "unwillingness to acknowledge externalities", as stated by the GP. Optimizing for profit resulted in many bad situations for Americans (see the Love Canal and the Cuyahoga River) and it was the reason the United States created the Environmental Protection Agency (EPA), so that negative externalities could be converted into dollars.

To bring into the discussion "Teslas" and "rockets that land" changes the argument from the demonstrable "bitcoin is bad for the planet" to a morally relative argument of "yeah, but it got us rockets and Teslas", which does nothing other than prove GPs point: to say that that Teslas and landing rockets are worth the price of Bitcoin is to ignore or disregard the externalities!

And it's hard to imagine that the GP "drew the line" at Bitcoin; to take that as the position is making a straw-man argument. Instead, an interpretation that would lead to valuable discussion should be adopted, like the position that Bitcoin both demonstrates the flaws of greed and that it does so in a way that is simple to understand and demonstrate, especially when it comes to externalities. Financial instruments are complex and opaque on purpose, designed to confuse and obfuscate greed. Bitcoin, on the other hand, has a much simpler equation: money versus power consumed versus pollutants produced.

Finally, a suggestion to all: avoid acronyms, or at least spell them out on first use. It's highly likely that "SF" meant "Science Fiction" and not "San Fransisco". Knowing the correct definition of an acronym can help avoid embarrassing situations.

Re: Bill Gates Says that Bitcoin is bad For the Planet

#546
post #11

Bitcoin is an almost perfect exploitation of humanities fatal flaws (greed, unwillingness to acknowledge externalities - i.e. selfishness). It's that old SF-trope that the cause of many of humanity's biggest problems is humans.

You could say the same about Windows though

Agree. It would not be easy to know which has wasted more GW-hrs, but my bet would be on Windows. Remembering decades of overnight flying toasters.

As recently as 2012 I was going around the office, before leaving, turning off the monitors left on because Windows did not default to doing that itself. On CRTs it was even worse.

But it is not a competition. Bitcoin and Windows together are clearly much worse than either alone.

Re: Bill Gates Says that Bitcoin is bad For the Planet

#547
post #11

Bitcoin is an almost perfect exploitation of humanities fatal flaws (greed, unwillingness to acknowledge externalities - i.e. selfishness). It's that old SF-trope that the cause of many of humanity's biggest problems is humans.

The current monetary system is even worse.

Re: Bill Gates Says that Bitcoin is bad For the Planet

#548
post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What about proof of stake is not secure? I think it's clear that the electrical use of proof of work will become a serious issue if Bitcoin (or similar blockchain) becomes widely adopted. Do you have a suggestion on how to address that issue, or do you believe it's a non-issue entirely?

It is entirely an non-issue. Nobody has the right to say how others use energy. One can make an argument about transmission efficiency, and generation materials (and how renewable sources are more efficient), thus profitable for both the planet and the miner. But the actual use of energy? Get out of here. Tired arguments that I thought died years ago.

> Nobody has the right to say how others use energy.

Bitcoin will get destroyed eventually by the free markets because of how inferior it is to many alternatives. One being its usage of energy.

Re: Bill Gates Says that Bitcoin is bad For the Planet

#549

There are so many better crypto-currencies. Better for the environment because they use proof-of-stake, and not proof-of-work. Better for users because transactions are confirmed in seconds, not hours, and without the ridiculous fees that Bitcoin has. I think this shows how truly powerful the network effect, and being first to market is. Because without those things, Bitcoin would be nothing.

Jeezus people have short memories. Bitcoin solved a flotilla of problems that were blockers for an all-digital currency in 2008. The most severe and proven problem was the threat of government shutdown by a police raid of your servers, this is what killed E-gold and other predecessors. The blockchain solved the problem of having your central ledger being shutdown by the cops/IRS/etc. by decentralizing it and of cours…

> governments have to be careful here as they must ensure that there are no challengers to their primary form of taxation payment

Why do they have to be careful? Are they going to magically going to have to start accepting Bitcoin instead of dollars?

> Bitcoin was very carefully crafted to survive government attack and finally the government accepted it by considering it a taxable commodity.

They still doesn't mean you can pay taxes with it.

Re: Bill Gates Says that Bitcoin is bad For the Planet

#550

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The thing about money is that I can hand it to someone. Honestly don’t know if you’re trolling or just old. I used paper money once last year. To buy weed. Because the federal government has determined I am not responsible enough to use or own weed. No one I know uses physical cash anymore. We’re moving away from physical items where possible, not toward it. I would rather have my currency on a public DLT than cont…

> Honestly don’t know if you’re trolling or just old. No need to be ageist. It's a fair perspective. There is a quality of independence and agency that comes from being able to purchase things with cash. Ironically, your weed transaction is a perfect example of that. I am a little confused by your argument though. Are you saying that you used cash because you couldn't pay legally with a debit/credit card or something…

Cash’s no. 1 use case in the 21st century is tax evasion. Most people just refuse to acknowledge that because they like evading taxes.

I’m sure there are ways to use cryptocurrency to do the same.

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