Bill Gates Says that Bitcoin is bad For the Planet • Hacker News Board

Re: Bill Gates Says that Bitcoin is bad For the Planet

#461

Post by saul_goodman » Mon, Mar 08, 2021, 6:18 PM UTC

jetpackjoe wrote: post #9

There are so many better crypto-currencies. Better for the environment because they use proof-of-stake, and not proof-of-work. Better for users because transactions are confirmed in seconds, not hours, and without the ridiculous fees that Bitcoin has. I think this shows how truly powerful the network effect, and being first to market is. Because without those things, Bitcoin would be nothing.

Jeezus people have short memories. Bitcoin solved a flotilla of problems that were blockers for an all-digital currency in 2008. The most severe and proven problem was the threat of government shutdown by a police raid of your servers, this is what killed E-gold and other predecessors. The blockchain solved the problem of having your central ledger being shutdown by the cops/IRS/etc. by decentralizing it and of course Bitcoin also solved a ton of other problems as well to make it an actual viable electronic cash transaction system. This is why it took off, not just because "it was the first to market". It wasn't, but it solved all of the real-world blockers that had killed all other attempts before it. Don't forget that we don't know for certain who "Satoshi" was and for good reason, he knew he'd have a target painted on his back by the government. He was incredibly smart to conceal his identity.

As a side-bar, a major role of money is to allow the government to easily collect taxes from their citizens and so governments have to be careful here as they must ensure that there are no challengers to their primary form of taxation payment. Bitcoin was very carefully crafted to survive government attack and finally the government accepted it by considering it a taxable commodity. While the early crypto-is-cash people are annoyed by this, it was the only possible outcome in a match between the government and crypto currency that doesn't end in outright warfare on crypto.

Now that digital currencies have moved from theoretical to a proven model people can move on to solving newer problems rather than just getting it off the ground. Now we have privacy coins which attempt to solve the problems of getting anonymous transactions among other desirable features. But wait there's more, now that we don't have to prove that electronic cash is a workable system we have decentralized finance coins now. If people thought the government hated bitcoin, just wait until the banking system realizes defi is coming.

Re: Bill Gates Says that Bitcoin is bad For the Planet

#462

Post by koheripbal » Mon, Mar 08, 2021, 6:18 PM UTC

silentsea90 wrote: post #420

What's bad for the planet is how decades of individual work output in money can be confiscated (by printing and inflation, not taxation) by the Government under the pretense of doing good. What's bizarre is that the Government is not affected by market forces while the rest of us plebs are forced to be efficient lest we lose to competition. Note: when I say confiscation, I mean money printing and not taxes (which wil…

You could argue that conventional warfare was the traditional mechanism by which governments competed against one another to "consume" failed states and re-allocate resources to governments that were better capable of putting them to use.

In modern times, the global financial markets seem to be somewhat playing that same role since nuclear wars isn't a palatable option, with only a few "outcast" nations not participating in that system (Iran,Russia,NK,Myanmar,etc...).

Taxation systems, being the mechanism by which governments are able to build power bases, themselves compete against one another as individuals and companies avoid taxation by moving resources to low/no tax states within that same system.

This human system is a constantly evolving chaotic system that's changing more rapidly than most of us perceive, and crypto is just one aspect of that.

Re: Bill Gates Says that Bitcoin is bad For the Planet

#463

Post by JakeTheAndroid » Mon, Mar 08, 2021, 6:19 PM UTC

mancerayder wrote: post #438

kitcar wrote: post #11

Bitcoin is an almost perfect exploitation of humanities fatal flaws (greed, unwillingness to acknowledge externalities - i.e. selfishness). It's that old SF-trope that the cause of many of humanity's biggest problems is humans.

Not a bitcoin fanboy, but that's a bit strong a statement. What is "greed" versus motivation for innovation? Is innovation rewarded with (taxed, regulated) wealth greed, and if so, is that "bad"? And if it creates Teslas and rockets that land, and robots on Mars that last a year or more analyzing samples, is it a fatal flaw? Some more questions... So let's say BTC is greed - the many financial instruments out there,…

Bitcoin innovated through a blockchain years ago and the world has already adopted that. But the current state of bitcoin makes it bad at its other 'innovation', digital currency.

Bitcoin is far too volatile to be a widespread, standard currency which seems to be the "reason" people say it's worth as much as it is. But it will never be a widespread currency until it has stability. So it's a chicken/egg situation, one of the two has to come first for the other, and both ideas rely on each other.

Most people that hold bitcoin today are doing so because they think it will increase in value, NOT because they care about the stability or viability of currency. That's pretty selfish insofar there are plenty of developing nations that would benefit greatly from a stable currency. Bitcoin might still be more stable than some countries, but that doesn't negate the issues.

So, because many people look at bitcoin as a wealth generator that produces tons of heat and waste, and it starts to look like a perfect marriage of shitty human behaviors.

Re: Bill Gates Says that Bitcoin is bad For the Planet

#464

Post by nelsontodd » Mon, Mar 08, 2021, 6:19 PM UTC

SwimSwimHungry wrote: post #393

nelsontodd wrote: post #349

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah but good luck convincing people to move next to sources of energy so cheap it would be wasted otherwise (rural west texas, rural china). If bitcoin becomes the dominant global financial system, securing it will be a worthy use of energy.

I really hope you're wrong about that. Bitcoin becoming something like a world reserve currency will only make the problems infinitely worse. Be careful what you wish for, because future generations are going to be left holding the bag.

You have no idea what you're talking about.

Re: Bill Gates Says that Bitcoin is bad For the Planet

#465

Post by adolph » Mon, Mar 08, 2021, 6:19 PM UTC

SiempreViernes wrote: post #330

adolph wrote: post #210

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> the cause of many of humanity's biggest problems is humans As opposed to elephants or sea urchins? How can humans not be the cause humanity's biggest problems? The Buddha taught there are three kinds of dukkha [usually translated as “suffering”]. The first kind is physical and mental pain from the inevitable stresses of life like old age, sickness, and death. The second is the distress we feel as a result of imperm…

One year into a worldwide pandemic affecting every aspect of life and you have a hard time finding examples of really bad things not caused by human? That's some committed misanthropy, I got to give you that.

Is a virus a problem or is it a new challenge for humanity to take on, just as our understanding of molecular biology has become ready to address it? I respect the loss of people just as I respect the loss of all who have gone before, soldiers, explorers, pioneers, even those who did not intend risk but lived unknowingly under risk that existed nonetheless.

These “problems” are opportunities to serve.

Re: Bill Gates Says that Bitcoin is bad For the Planet

#466

Post by [deleted] » Mon, Mar 08, 2021, 6:20 PM UTC

[deleted]

Re: Bill Gates Says that Bitcoin is bad For the Planet

#467

Post by serial_dev » Mon, Mar 08, 2021, 6:20 PM UTC

jasonlaramburu wrote: post #427

TameAntelope wrote: post #409

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're getting a lot of responses, because this is a pretty common complaint about crypto, and it taps into a great "WELL ACTUALLY" moment, because your concern is close enough to the "at least real money is backed by something" misconception (which, tbh, I'm sure you're aware of at this point if you weren't already). Fundamentally, what folks are trying to get to with crypto is a trust-less system, one that can oper…

Crypto is 'backed' by the sunk cost of the energy used to mine it.

I think it's backed by the hope that on a couple of years it will be worth lot more (instead of looking backwards, people look forward and hope to get rich).

Re: Bill Gates Says that Bitcoin is bad For the Planet

#468

Post by rafale » Mon, Mar 08, 2021, 6:20 PM UTC

Cookingboy wrote: post #442

mattwilsonn888 wrote: post #263

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, and the selective bail outs and inflation which favor the rich are just the opposite!

Just because something else is bad already doesn't mean you should introduce more of the same. Also Bill Gate's opinion is based on Bitcoin offering almost no utilitarian value but consumes a ton of energy, nothing to do with monetary policies.

The value is providing the ownership of a digital scarce fixed-supply item that can be transferred and traded. That's the product. And the market gives it a price. Also, it has everything to do with monetary policy.

Re: Bill Gates Says that Bitcoin is bad For the Planet

#469

Post by silentsea90 » Mon, Mar 08, 2021, 6:21 PM UTC

warkdarrior wrote: post #430

silentsea90 wrote: post #304

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The real power imbalance is the Central Bank's power to confiscate wealth by inflating it away aka money printing, and not to forget the confiscation of physical gold by the US in 1933 (thanks FDR). There is a reason why countries decoupled from the gold standard to fund WW1. They got near infinite access to the nation's wealth. The loser of WW1 ie Germany eventually suffered hyperinflation, as have countries like Zi…

The GP's point is that even if we switch to Bitcoin completely, there will still be a hierarchy of financial players, with regular people at the bottom, just like in the current system. There are ~150MM people working in US, so let's say that only these 150MM need to perform financial transactions (get paid, pay others, etc.). How many of these 150MM will be direct participants in Bitcoin? If not all of them are mine…

The problem isn't with US banks but central banks, and it isn't with concentration of wealth but confiscation of wealth through money printing

We very well might have Coinbase, BlockFi etc. act as crypto banks, and BTC whales as the new rich. That's reward for their work and belief. What do you think is the threat vector from BTC miners? The protocol nullifies such threats.

What would be bad is if a central authority could confiscate your work output at its leisure. That's the real battle here

Re: Bill Gates Says that Bitcoin is bad For the Planet

#470

Post by asenna » Mon, Mar 08, 2021, 6:22 PM UTC

At a larger scale of things given what Bitcoin just made possible and what it's trying to disrupt (decentralized, uncensored), Bitcoin is literally just 12 years old and I feel these judgements are too harsh and too soon for something which is still yet to be adopted or even understood by 95% of the population. The benefits of Bitcoin can truly be appreciated or judged once the tech has been adopted in a relatively larger segment.

Even so, let's say Bitcoin is extremely inefficient and should just be abandoned as a failure (I'm of the opposite view though obviously), what's happening with Ethereum is far more interesting. I've been in the space for a while and the kinds of innovation that's happening on one layer on top of another - ALL on a soon-to-be efficient Proof-of-stake system is absolutely amazing.

I'm actually very surprised I don't see enough discussion and threads on HN regarding the various things happening at such a fast pace (DeFi, Dexes, NFTs, Layer-2 and Sidechains, Eth2 Validation and sharding, other interesting Dapp use-cases).

Given all of these developments, it would be fair to say at least on Ethereum that such "energy inefficient" narrative is soon going to be obsolete. I would love to hear Bill Gates' thoughts on the tech then.

Bill is the one that persued Warren Buffet and tried to get him onboard with Tech companies. I'm surprised it's Bill Gates that now needs someone to get him on board with this massive new emerging field.