Bill Gates Says that Bitcoin is bad For the Planet • Hacker News Board

Re: Bill Gates Says that Bitcoin is bad For the Planet

#391

Post by la_fayette » Mon, Mar 08, 2021, 5:49 PM UTC

8fGTBjZxBcHq wrote: post #274

Shorel wrote: post #232

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We have been polluting and overheating the planet to make virtual characters eat pills and rescue princesses for over 30 years. What's the utility of that?

Fun and joy in and of themselves are worthy pursuits. That's completely aside from considering video games as an artistic medium that can be used to learn and share about the human experience. Bitcoin does none of that. At its very very best it's a way to buy hallucinogens on the internet with massive external consequences.

I think understanding bitcoin from a systems point of view is of great value. Although proof of work is problematic, the idea and manifestation of a censorship resisten electronic monetary system is just amazing. Bitcoin is actually working for more than 10 years... There are alternatives to PoW, e.g. ethereum 2.0, let's see if this works and than judge again...

Re: Bill Gates Says that Bitcoin is bad For the Planet

#392

Post by soledades » Mon, Mar 08, 2021, 5:50 PM UTC

xkjkls wrote: post #280

airza wrote: post #254

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As opposed to other externally-caused problems like natural disasters, beating eaten by lions, etc. I would guess that a large chunk of human history was dominated by these problems.

Or just hunger in general. Before the agriculture revolution starvation was the primary cause of human death.

This is incorrect:

> "The bones of 'domiciled' Homo sapiens compared with those of hunter-gatherers are also distinctive: they are smaller; the bones and teeth often bear the signature of nutritional distress, in particular, an iron-deficiency anemia marked above all in women of reproductive age whose diets consist increasingly of grains"

from Against the Grain

Re: Bill Gates Says that Bitcoin is bad For the Planet

#393

Post by SwimSwimHungry » Mon, Mar 08, 2021, 5:50 PM UTC

nelsontodd wrote: post #349

SwimSwimHungry wrote: post #334

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hydroelectric sources that could be best used on homes, businesses, etc. Anything but Bitcoin, really. Did everyone forget that the best goal we can achieve with power usage is by reducing consumption outright? Just because some of the mining is done on greener solutions doesn't mean it's a net positive. Global warming isn't exactly going away if we keep this experiment up.

Yeah but good luck convincing people to move next to sources of energy so cheap it would be wasted otherwise (rural west texas, rural china). If bitcoin becomes the dominant global financial system, securing it will be a worthy use of energy.

I really hope you're wrong about that. Bitcoin becoming something like a world reserve currency will only make the problems infinitely worse. Be careful what you wish for, because future generations are going to be left holding the bag.

Re: Bill Gates Says that Bitcoin is bad For the Planet

#394

Post by la_fayette » Mon, Mar 08, 2021, 5:51 PM UTC

nelsontodd wrote: post #54

kitcar wrote: post #11

Bitcoin is an almost perfect exploitation of humanities fatal flaws (greed, unwillingness to acknowledge externalities - i.e. selfishness). It's that old SF-trope that the cause of many of humanity's biggest problems is humans.

This is silly. Consensus (probably, I am doubtful of PoS) isn't free. You get a choice between bitcoin mining and military force. Which do you find less harmful? Edit: I should clarify. I am saying that the status of the USD as a reserve currency has led to lots of US military action.

Absolutely true!

Re: Bill Gates Says that Bitcoin is bad For the Planet

#395

Post by la_fayette » Mon, Mar 08, 2021, 5:52 PM UTC

jetpackjoe wrote: post #9

There are so many better crypto-currencies. Better for the environment because they use proof-of-stake, and not proof-of-work. Better for users because transactions are confirmed in seconds, not hours, and without the ridiculous fees that Bitcoin has. I think this shows how truly powerful the network effect, and being first to market is. Because without those things, Bitcoin would be nothing.

Nothing proven yet in large usecases...

Re: Bill Gates Says that Bitcoin is bad For the Planet

#396

Post by TheCondor » Mon, Mar 08, 2021, 5:53 PM UTC

dathinab wrote: post #199

jetpackjoe wrote: post #9

There are so many better crypto-currencies. Better for the environment because they use proof-of-stake, and not proof-of-work. Better for users because transactions are confirmed in seconds, not hours, and without the ridiculous fees that Bitcoin has. I think this shows how truly powerful the network effect, and being first to market is. Because without those things, Bitcoin would be nothing.

It's not just about a currency usage network effect but also about speculative investments and alternative ways to "store" money. Depending on this you can compare it more with stocks without a company behind the stock or gold which for arbitrary reasons can't be used in manufacturing. Without this and usage for criminal purposes bitcoin would be worth a fraction of it's current worth and as such likely not worth min…

Is there anything definitive on this? I've heard/read that less than 3% of bitcoin was used for illegal purposes but I don't know if they include tax evasion in that.

Re: Bill Gates Says that Bitcoin is bad For the Planet

#397

Post by naringas » Mon, Mar 08, 2021, 5:53 PM UTC

And I say that Microsoft's fundamental innovation (I'm referring to the practice of licensing software) is bad for society.

Re: Bill Gates Says that Bitcoin is bad For the Planet

#398

Post by pvarangot » Mon, Mar 08, 2021, 5:54 PM UTC

mtinkerhess wrote: post #311

mensetmanusman wrote: post #289

Whats worse for the planet are governments, like those in Venezuela, that are causing so much human suffering that their population needs the existence of BTC to survive.

"What about..." There are better solutions.

Are you suggesting they stop using Bitcoin to bypass the economic war being fought over the US dollar by their government? That would substantially lower their quality of life and access to food, land, knowledge markets...

As long as Bitcoin is there and works it will have a price that seems inflated to someone that can buy and sell anything form their chair on a first world country.

Re: Bill Gates Says that Bitcoin is bad For the Planet

#399

Post by nmz » Mon, Mar 08, 2021, 5:54 PM UTC

bingbong70 wrote: post #293

gnrlst wrote: post #15

Bitcoin is a beautiful concept that has been bastardized by economies of scale. The mining concentration is decreasing its security over time. The centralized block structure and exorbitant fees will afflict it more and more as it grows. Even arguments about renewable energy being used to mine BTC are moot, because they don't consider the opportunity cost of what could be done with all that energy instead. I truly be…

>Even arguments about renewable energy being used to mine BTC are moot, because they don't consider the opportunity cost of what could be done with all that energy instead. If I launch a BTC miner into space and use a star to power it, will you worry about what else could have been done with that energy? The more remote the energy source, the higher the cost to deliver it to a centralized grid, meaning it will probab…

> If I launch a BTC miner into space and use a star to power it, will you worry about what else could have been done with that energy?

This is mental masturbation and also incredibly misleading. Economics is about managing finite resources. Who cares about impossible (for now) imaginary situations.

Re: Bill Gates Says that Bitcoin is bad For the Planet

#400

Post by jfim » Mon, Mar 08, 2021, 5:54 PM UTC

nelsontodd wrote: post #376

jfim wrote: post #318

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Keep in mind that the US government has an incentive to keep the US dollar as the currency used for most of the international trade. If Bitcoin would become a risk to that status, would the US government just give up and admit defeat or would it outlaw usage of it?

I doubt they would just roll over yeah. If you consider the dollar as a weapon/tool for US hegemony, bitcoin functions as almost like a terrorist entity. Not clear what to do with this information

It's just a risk that the value of it drops to near zero if it's outlawed.

Or it could become highly regulated and be much less useful for trade due to onerous compliance requirements. For example, how do you prove that wallet X that one is sending money to isn't going to someone who's in an embargoed country?