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NFTs Are a Dangerous Trap

seths.blog

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Re: NFTs Are a Dangerous Trap

#631

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It certifies two things: 1. That you paid a certain amount for the certificate. 2. That there will never be another certificate for the same thing, from the same brand of certificates (e.g. "Valuables BY CENT"). Pretty much exactly like owning a baseball card, then.

> it certifies ... that there will never be another certificate for the same thing, from the same brand of certificates (e.g. "Valuables BY CENT"). How many "brand of certificates" are there now, and what is the barrier to entry? I suspect 1) several and 2) low. Also, how is "there will never be another certificate for the same thing, from the same brand of certificates" technically enforced?

> Also, how is "there will never be another certificate for the same thing, from the same brand of certificates" technically enforced?

A Merkle chain[0] append-only ledger contains a transaction minting the certificate, and the consistency rules for that Merkle chain mean that any extension of the chain which mints another such certificate is not valid (the same as a extension that spends money from a account with no money in it is not valid).

0: technically a blockchain specifically, but that's not actually relevant

Re: NFTs Are a Dangerous Trap

#632
post #517

Earlier quoted context omitted.

NFTs are nonsense and just as much a pyramid scheme as everything else crypto. People will get left holding the bag at the top just like with CryptoKitties. I have several hand painted reproductions of famous paintings (impressionist). I get just as much enjoyment looking at them on my wall as I have at the museums looking at the real ones. I don't need to have $100M. I'm glad that content creators are getting paid n…

I’m skeptical about NFTs too but trying to keep an open mind, because at the end of the day, while you or I personally don’t need the 100M to enjoy the impressionist art, you can’t ignore the fact that someone out there is in fact willing to pay that for the original. And that’s kind of the same weird authenticity bragging rights situation.

I worry about the weird effect on society of massive lopsided wealth encouraging hucksterism (from all levels of wealth) just because people don't know what to spend their too-much-money on.

Re: NFTs Are a Dangerous Trap

#633

Earlier quoted context omitted.

NFTs are nonsense and just as much a pyramid scheme as everything else crypto. People will get left holding the bag at the top just like with CryptoKitties. I have several hand painted reproductions of famous paintings (impressionist). I get just as much enjoyment looking at them on my wall as I have at the museums looking at the real ones. I don't need to have $100M. I'm glad that content creators are getting paid n…

How do you go about having such quality reproductions? What are the costs?

As mentioned in the thread, there are different qualities but a couple of hundred will get you something pretty nice that is hand painted. Usually framing will cost more. Impressionist paintings tend to have some thick paint that can't be captured in a print. Large prints can also be just as expensive as real paint on real canvas. I know it isn't as good but I don't sit and stare at it for hours from 6 inches away. It is also a beautiful reminder of a nice trip to the museum.

Re: NFTs Are a Dangerous Trap

#634

Earlier quoted context omitted.

NFTs are nonsense and just as much a pyramid scheme as everything else crypto. People will get left holding the bag at the top just like with CryptoKitties. I have several hand painted reproductions of famous paintings (impressionist). I get just as much enjoyment looking at them on my wall as I have at the museums looking at the real ones. I don't need to have $100M. I'm glad that content creators are getting paid n…

Worth noting that NFTs aren’t just cryptokitties; there is a lot more you can do with them. ETH NFT refers to the smart contracts that you would use to digitize ownership of a house or any other (physical or financial) unique asset that you might trade. You can nest an NFT under an ERC20 token, too, so that you can sell partial ownership tokens in your NFT. Of all the use-cases in crypto, I think digitizing ownership…

As a sibling mentions, you can't digitize a house. The state has already done that. The whole point of crypto is decentralized trust. You don't need that when the state is the system of trust, whether you like it or not.

Re: NFTs Are a Dangerous Trap

#635

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What if it's a digital painting where all copies are identical? The certificate basically is the ownership.

Suppose I own a game on steam. I pay a friend to write me a certificate saying whoever owns the certificate owns the game. I sell you the certificate. You pirate the game. Do you own it? If the NFT doesn't come with conventional legal rights, you don't own the thing the NFT points to in the real legal system. If it does, it's redundant.

If first sale doctrine is ever fixed, your friend could sell you their copy that way.

I don't know why all your examples involve third parties stamping sweet nothings onto a piece of paper. Of course something made by a non-author and with no ownership is useless. I said that in my first comment.

> If the NFT doesn't come with conventional legal rights, you don't own the thing the NFT points to in the real legal system. If it does, it's redundant.

An NFT needs to have some kind of rights in the contract or it's a scam. Notably you at least need exclusivity!

But that doesn't make it "redundant". It's a way of making a contract, not a replacement for contracts.

Re: NFTs Are a Dangerous Trap

#636
post #256

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It doesn't even give you ownership on anything other than a blockchain print. I’m pretty sure my domain name NFTs give some ownership rights you are overlooking.

What if someone in a similar position to you sold a domain name they 'owned' to someone else off-blockchain? Where would the rights sit then?

It’s to much of a hypothetical but in general it would be the same as being the registered owner of a domain name and selling/leasing it direct to someone.

In other words if I own abc.eth and abc.com and sell them both to you directly but I keep the abc.eth NFT and keep abc.com, then you could still bring me to court to enforce our agreement

Re: NFTs Are a Dangerous Trap

#637
post #581

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Except those sorts of collectibles drive much of their value from their limited supply.

paintings might be limited in supply, but trading cards are easily mass produced.

They’re both still subject to entropy and the rules of the physical universe in a way that digital isn’t.

Re: NFTs Are a Dangerous Trap

#638
post #530

Earlier quoted context omitted.

what is the use-case for an NFT for an in-game virtual good? A sword from World of Warcraft (WoW) can already be traded between players within WoW, since the environment in which it appears is already centralized and that's already provided by the environment. Trading a WoW sword outside of WoW has ambiguous logic. Let's say you sold your WoW sword to a Destiny player. Ok, does the sword still exist in WoW or not? Wh…

I will help clear up some confusion if I'm able. First, I don't think the big use case is for items being traded between different games. However, a system like that is possible. Blizzard would be a good example here, since their games have a high degree of cross-pollination, and they frequently offer promotions that unlock similar items in several of their games at once. So, owning a Blizzard "magic sword" token mig…

> So, owning a Blizzard "magic sword" token might give you a sword item in WoW, another one in Diablo, and a sword card in Hearthstone, each adapted for its own game. This is a small use case, in my opinion.

I'm like 90% certain that there are cross-game item unlocks in Blizzard games already.

> NFTs can be programmed such that creators receive an automatic royalty (a percentage of the sale lands in the creator's wallet address) whenever the item is sold on the blockchain, no matter who is selling to whom.

Why is that good? Who is it good for? Why would a game developer sign up for this? You seem to be under the impression that I have no concept at all of what NFTs do. The problem is that a multiplayer game server is fundamentally already a trusted third party and the incentives for gamedevs to use them are poor, while the complexities enormous. Boiling the oceans to produce a trustless ecosystem for asset transfer is a fruitless endeavor if those assets can only be reified inside of environments that fundamentally require trusted third parties.

You already need to have a trusted third party (the game server) in order to give any functionality to the assets. Once you've added that trusted third party, you've thrown away the key benefit of blockchains.

The trusted third party is effectively required to moderate custom assets in games; untrusted asset creation is an unchecked liability in general, and is expressly prohibited by the terms of many game platforms. If a player creates content that is hateful, then another player that is a child can download it, and if their parent sees that, the kid will say "I'm playing $your_game", and then the parent will raise a stink about how $your_game has $hateful content in it and $your_game exposed their children to that content. That sort of thing will certainly get your game delisted from the Nintendo or Sony stores. Even if you're only concerned with an unregulated PC market, it's going to be a hit to your sales.

If a child wanders onto a hateful website, the parent is going to say "the web exposed my child to $extremism", and then use parental controls to control what their kid can access on the web, but you cannot do that in a game. Sorry, you can't bring your $valuable_item in here because $other_player has it disabled in their content settings. You'd better believe parents are going to say "$video_game exposed my child to hate speech" and it's going to harm your sales.

Beyond hate speech, assets have to be verified by the game dev to verify their integrity; the asset has to be loadable and working without errors and without breaking the game. That's assuming there are zero vulns in the asset pipeline. Beyond merely being loadable, it should also conform to some guidelines so that the asset doesn't perform well for players with fast machines, but make the game unplayable for players with slow machines.

As for royalties: Steam Workshop already gives royalties to people who create assets (albeit at poor rates) and people already play that game. Why would I, a game developer, sign up for something that makes all of this worse, reduces my revenues, is massively more complicated, requires me to verify data against a blockchain constantly, AND increases liabilities? This is assuming you even -can- verify the data against the blockchain frequently. Even assuming you're using a blockchain with a read latency of zero, you're still performing i/o. You want to perform blocking i/o to an external datastore every single time a player wants to use an item? The only away around that would be to write a lock into the blockchain to prevent transfer with a contract and cache the ownership semantics, at which point you have completely duffed every single advantage a blockchain is giving you.

Let's say, hypothetically, that we ignored all extant games and ONLY considered new games. Again: if you're not moving an item between simulations, it's all for naught because the game dev can just implement a traditional inventory system more easily, and if you -are- moving an item between simulations, the spawning simulation and the target simulation need to be in agreement about what an item spawned in one simulation means in the other simulation. That alone is a terrifically difficult problem that NFTs do nothing to address. Few game devs would sign up for this, because it would mean that the -other- gamedev would be able to affect the balance of the economy in -their- game, potentially to catastrophic effect. It effectively ties the game economies together, but different games have fundamentally different economies with different mechanics. Who is in control of the spawn rate of assets? "You just make the asset be some random thing whose nonce is some thing that's made on the blockchain at a fixed rate determined by the blockchain itself" like CryptoKitties or whatever. Ok, fine. How do you issue a patch to alter spawn rates, balance the relative frequencies of different items appearing, or change their properties? If you -can't- do that, you can't balance your game. Balancing live game economies is -incredibly- difficult, you can't just hope to get it right on the first shot.

Re: NFTs Are a Dangerous Trap

#639
post #517

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’m skeptical about NFTs too but trying to keep an open mind, because at the end of the day, while you or I personally don’t need the 100M to enjoy the impressionist art, you can’t ignore the fact that someone out there is in fact willing to pay that for the original. And that’s kind of the same weird authenticity bragging rights situation.

while you or I personally don’t need the 100M to enjoy the impressionist art, you can’t ignore the fact that someone out there is in fact willing to pay that for the original. There are people who happily pay $10,000+ for an Italian purse. There are people who are happy with a $10 Chinese knock-off. There are people who happily pay $2,000 for an Apple laptop. There are people who are happy with Linux on a $100 machin…

> There are people who happily pay $2,000 for an Apple laptop. There are people who are happy with Linux on a $100 machine from Goodwill.

This is the weirdest sentiment that I see all the time on HN, but enough people express it that I have to accept it as both widespread and genuine.

However, I think that if you think $2000 US for an Apple laptop isn't the best value for money you can get on the laptop market, then you're either very good at finding bargains or completely bonkers.

Yes, macOS is no longer for developers. Yes, for extreme workloads I use my linux ryzen7/2080ti or the cloud rather than the MBP. Yes, they had a strange couple of years with the keyboards.

But honestly, they're the best hardware hands down. Not just the best absolutely, but the best per dollar. And personally I love macOS, but I'm just a manager these days so I guess I would, right?

Re: NFTs Are a Dangerous Trap

#640
post #556

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You are overlooking the disadvantage of not verifying the prior hash, which you can't do until you can verify hashMerkleRoot, which you can't do until you have collected the entire block. If you skip verification, you open yourself up to bad actors feeding you a bogus header - and you only figure that out after being drip fed a bunch of transactions that don't match the merkle root. Erasure coding doesn't fix that. I…

>>If you skip verification, you open yourself up to bad actors feeding you a bogus header - and you only figure that out after being drip fed a bunch of transactions that don't match the merkle root. Malicious actors can't give a bogus header, because you can verify the bogus header doesn't have enough PoW. If the malicious actor does produce sufficient PoW for their bogus header, they are foregoing massive block rew…

> Malicious actors can't give a bogus header, because you can verify the bogus header doesn't have enough PoW.

Ok, I guess you don't know how verification works. Here are the 19 steps: https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Protocol_rules#.22block.22_messag...

    Step 4) "Block hash must satisfy claimed nBits proof of work"
The bad actor has full control of that, he just has to make sure the fake header has enough leading 0s in phony header nBits, the function that checks this is CheckProofOfWork() at https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/blob/master/src/pow.cpp#L...

    Step 10) "Verify Merkle hash"
Well gee-wiz, how are we going to do that without having all the transaction in the block that the phony header hashMerkleRoot represents? GetHash() at https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/blob/master/src/primitive...
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