Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

China’s Bitcoin miners flee Inner Mongolia ahead of crypto mining ban

forkast.news

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

51–60 of 128 posts

Re: China’s Bitcoin miners flee Inner Mongolia ahead of crypto mining ban

#51

Post by whoknew1122 »

ravenstine wrote: post #36
whoknew1122 wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's almost as if people's thoughts can change and evolve. I honestly wonder when and how changing your mind became a bad thing. Show me someone whose thoughts or ideas don't evolve and I'll show you someone who's wasting their life.

Could be that, and it can also be that people are capable of being massive hypocrites. Nobody who opposes Bitcoin on environmental grounds has anything to say about the sheer waste and pollution that most of us take part in. If Bitcoin is so bad for using as much energy as Argentina, then we should stop using energy to stream entertainment, which we are doing now more than ever.

> "Nobody who opposes Bitcoin on environmental grounds has anything to say about the sheer waste and pollution that most of us take part in."

[citation needed]

> "If Bitcoin is so bad for using as much energy as Argentina, then we should stop using energy to stream entertainment, which we are doing now more than ever."

Until we get off fossil-fuel based electricity, all environmental arguments are going to be based off marginal utility. There's a trade-off.

I personally think that Bitcoin at best is an unregulated financial market and at worst fake internet money. The fact mining contributes to more energy consumption than entire countries is worrying to me. It's a problem that's only going to get worse.

On the other hand, let's look at your argument about streaming entertainment. Currently plugged into my house, I have 2 TVs and 4 computer monitors. I use these to stream entertainment (among other things). Is it wasteful? Yeah, but entertainment is necessary for a balanced life and mental well-being.

Are my 6 screens wasteful? To some extent, although most of that waste is a byproduct of manufacturing where the 'off' button doesn't turn my screens off; it just puts then in a sleep mode which consumes power. So all 6 screens consume some amount of electricity 24 hours a day. This is a problem which should be fixed.

This is a problem with most modern appliances. It contributes to enough excess energy consumption that it even has its own name--vampire electricity.

You see? People can have critiques of both at the same time. But even if you take all the vampire electricity my appliances consume, it's still a drop in the bucket compared with what it takes to mine fake internet money.

Re: China’s Bitcoin miners flee Inner Mongolia ahead of crypto mining ban

#52

Post by sprash »

klmadfejno wrote: post #44
nannal wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sounds like there's a fairly simple conclusion we can jump to that solves all the issue of burning fossil fuels.

If you can solve global energy scarcity I'd be eager to hear it.

Build orbital rings and put solar panels in space. Can be done with todays technology.

Re: China’s Bitcoin miners flee Inner Mongolia ahead of crypto mining ban

#53

Post by rtkwe »

klmadfejno wrote: post #40
incrudible wrote: post #19

It's worth noting that this is about coal-fueled mining operations that constitute only about 10% of mining operations in China.

10% sounds like a lot.

Especially when China constitutes about 70% of the hashrate for bitcoin.

(I'm also dubious of how they know what is powering the mining operations inside China, most of the power in China still comes from coal.)

Re: China’s Bitcoin miners flee Inner Mongolia ahead of crypto mining ban

#54

Post by websites2323 »

latchkey wrote: post #50
klmadfejno wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not if bitcoin just starts consuming renewable power, causing other use cases to make up the difference in coal power.

The reality is that you can't dictate what power is used. Power on a large scale is extremely hard and expensive to transmit. Comments like this do not consider the larger picture. If you plop a mining farm down next to an existing hydro dam that was previously used for powering aluminum smelting, then that farm is now funding the maintenance of that dam. That dam then can provide power to the surrounding community.…

Your occupation is terrible for the environment and there’s no sleight of hand with localized power sources that will change that.

All these dreams of decentralized money will be worth nothing when global warming and the associated chaos kick in.

Re: China’s Bitcoin miners flee Inner Mongolia ahead of crypto mining ban

#55

Post by latchkey »

websites2323 wrote: post #54
latchkey wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The reality is that you can't dictate what power is used. Power on a large scale is extremely hard and expensive to transmit. Comments like this do not consider the larger picture. If you plop a mining farm down next to an existing hydro dam that was previously used for powering aluminum smelting, then that farm is now funding the maintenance of that dam. That dam then can provide power to the surrounding community.…

Your occupation is terrible for the environment and there’s no sleight of hand with localized power sources that will change that. All these dreams of decentralized money will be worth nothing when global warming and the associated chaos kick in.

I thought this thread from Dan Held was really good:

https://twitter.com/danheld/status/1351235080103096331

It starts off with:

"1/ Bitcoin’s energy consumption is not “wasteful.”

- It is much more efficient than existing financial systems

- No one has the moral authority to tell you what is a good or bad use of energy (ex: watching the Kardashians)

Let's debunk this FUD"

Re: China’s Bitcoin miners flee Inner Mongolia ahead of crypto mining ban

#56

Post by pavlov »

aboringusername wrote: post #25
pavlov wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would vote in the EU elections for almost any parliamentary group that makes this a priority. This is a perfect example of an issue where union-level decision making is required to curb a destructive activity.

Can you explain in your opinion how mining is a "destructive activity" yet before there were plenty of other "destructive activity". Money is destructive, period. And plastic.

There are good examples of countries getting together to shut down destructive activities when market forces were unable to. Bans on leaded gasoline and ozone-depleting CFCs, for example.

IMO it would be enough if regulators take action against crypto exchanges. Tax outflows heavily, audit companies located in the EU, track bank transfers received from exchanges outside the EU. Controlling the exit ramps to euros is achievable. People can still trade on IRC or whatever, but the scheme is much less appealing when you don't have easy retail money flowing in to buy those coins.

Re: China’s Bitcoin miners flee Inner Mongolia ahead of crypto mining ban

#57

Post by colordrops »

exabrial wrote: post #8

I hope we see more Bitcoin mining bans elsewhere. I definitely like digital currencies, but mined currencies need to go.

That's like saying you like cars, but motors have to go. There are no interesting digital currencies that are not proof of work based (yet). Hopefully that will change soon.

Re: China’s Bitcoin miners flee Inner Mongolia ahead of crypto mining ban

#58

Post by blonde_ocean »

mensetmanusman wrote: post #37
burlesona wrote: post #2

I’m not shocked to see this. I’m bullish on bitcoin overall, but at this point I believe the Geo-political risk caused by the insane power requirements of current day mining are the biggest danger to bitcoin as a whole. Obviously the network and operate fine with less power, but if that reduction in hash rate occurs because most of the world has banned mining, you can imagine a situation where the remaining miners ca…

The biggest danger to bitcoin is a black swan event where a nation state like North Korea decides to hack coinbase.

Can we stop calling everything a “black swan?” This would not be a black swan; nation states should be expected to have the ability to find a vulnerability in an application such as coinbase.

Now, if you were to say a nation state decides to hack the blockchain, well, I’d call that a black swan.

Re: China’s Bitcoin miners flee Inner Mongolia ahead of crypto mining ban

#59

Post by websites2323 »

ravenstine wrote: post #36
whoknew1122 wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's almost as if people's thoughts can change and evolve. I honestly wonder when and how changing your mind became a bad thing. Show me someone whose thoughts or ideas don't evolve and I'll show you someone who's wasting their life.

Could be that, and it can also be that people are capable of being massive hypocrites. Nobody who opposes Bitcoin on environmental grounds has anything to say about the sheer waste and pollution that most of us take part in. If Bitcoin is so bad for using as much energy as Argentina, then we should stop using energy to stream entertainment, which we are doing now more than ever.

Hi, I oppose bitcoin and have lots to say about the sheer waste and pollution that most of us take part in.

I also put my money where my mouth is! I drive electric and charge only at my employer, which uses 100% solar. I don’t eat meat. I shop at package free groceries. I eat as much local food as possible. I don’t stream movies or music.

We exist, my friend, but that’s besides the point. There are no saints in systems as complex as energy. You can only take aim at the big stuff and hope you can make an impact.

Bitcoin is entirely unnecessary, unlike eating and driving. Participating is a choice. And it’s a bad choice.

Re: China’s Bitcoin miners flee Inner Mongolia ahead of crypto mining ban

#60

Post by space_rock »

bradleyjg wrote: post #5
cheaprentalyeti wrote: post #3

I suspect this has more to do with Chinese internal politics ("We're tired of spending money on industries in Inner Mongolia that aren't part of the national industrial plan or whatever we're calling it this week") than anything to do with the environment. They still added a lot of coal plants last year. They just want to spend the resulting power on something other than businesses in Inner Mongolia.

It’s subsidized power and these “businesses” are effectively just reselling that power to foreigners at a markup. No government would want to participate in that.

Nothing is worse for the environment then subsidized coal power. Uneconomical environmental destruction
Post reply on HN