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Reflections on IDEA vs VS Code

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Re: Reflections on IDEA vs VS Code

#381

Post by dmitryminkovsky »

arcturus17 wrote: post #114
tharkun__ wrote: post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Embrace: put out an open source code editor. Extend: have a plugin system that everyone can contribute to (sounds like eclipse or IntelliJ CE) and even make money off of. Plugins don't have to be free. Extinguish: make your own plugins with full refactoring support etc. for the languages you see most actively used (everyone uses it for Go and Python now? Make a good enough plugin for that. Nobody uses it for Erlang a…

It remains to be seen whether they will find this economical when they are not making any direct revenue on the product. I understand that VSCode is part of a grand strategic plan that goes beyond revenue, but I seriously doubt that they'd be willing to internally maintain the absolute truckload of code that would ensue from getting to feature parity with Jetbrains on languages like Java or Python. I'd wager at some…

> but I seriously doubt that they'd be willing to internally maintain the absolute truckload of code that would ensue from getting to feature parity with Jetbrains on languages like Java or Python

Why would you doubt this? Microsoft is huge compared to JetBrains and revenue opportunities of code editors have been clearly demonstrated since the 80s. Microsoft sold how many billions of dollars of Visual Studio in the 90s? Plus the red flags are already popping up: Microsoft is already not open sourcing Python language tooling [0].

[0] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25719045

Re: Reflections on IDEA vs VS Code

#382

Post by dmitryminkovsky »

thu2111 wrote: post #375
arcturus17 wrote: post #114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It remains to be seen whether they will find this economical when they are not making any direct revenue on the product. I understand that VSCode is part of a grand strategic plan that goes beyond revenue, but I seriously doubt that they'd be willing to internally maintain the absolute truckload of code that would ensue from getting to feature parity with Jetbrains on languages like Java or Python. I'd wager at some…

Another important point: JetBrains have long experience of competing against well funded free competitors. In fact they have grown in an environment where there have always been such products: first NetBeans, then Eclipse, now VS Code. Subsidising IDEs has been a common tactic for a long time, VS Code is nothing new. The story is always the same: such IDEs grow quickly for a while because their price is zero, but eve…

This argument is a compelling case for JetBrains and I hope it proves out.

> They cannot lose interest or make self-destructive decisions because the IDEs are their core revenue stream.

But this can be said about Microsoft as well. IDEs are not the core of their revenue stream, but they're near the core, because "developers, developers, developers, developers" is still true. They're a software company, they make operating systems, a cloud platform, and hardware. They need to provide developer tooling. If IDEs aren't their core revenue, they're certainly near the core. If Microsoft hasn't been making money on IDEs lately, they have in the past, they see other people are, and they're certainly going to try and get back to that if they can.

Re: Reflections on IDEA vs VS Code

#383

Post by dmitryminkovsky »

sidsidev wrote: post #220
dmitryminkovsky wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is what Microsoft does. Their #1 thing is being in the market even if the product is bad. They’re delegating now, but wait until they’ve established their foothold, leveled up the core framework. Then they’re going to stop delegating one language after another.

Sure, but Microsoft also has Visual Studio. If they start heavily investing in VSCode for C#, C++, then they're going to be cannibalising Visual Studio. And for what?

I think they're going to phase out Visual Studio. They like VSCode because it's an Electron app that runs on any platform and even in the browser. Microsoft isn't just a Windows company anymore, and VSCode is their future editor.

Re: Reflections on IDEA vs VS Code

#384

Post by dmitryminkovsky »

happymellon wrote: post #256
dmitryminkovsky wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> But that does not carry over to all languages. It does. All languages are basically the same. They parse to ASTs that you can manipulate programmatically. If those ASTs are strongly typed, you can safely perform refractors. What makes IntelliJ good is the base framework JetBrains uses, the same one they use in WebStorm, PyCharm, etc. VSCode is that same thing: an adaptable base and I’m sure making it on par for Jav…

Could not be further from the truth. Even with rope installed, VSCode won't always allow me to rename a variable and just silently fails.

Python is not a strongly typed language and renaming variables in such a language is a minefield. I've used PyCharm and WebStorm and never felt comfortable using their variable rename facilities for Python and Javascript. If they do it better than rope then that's good, but you need to write those languages in a very specific if you want IDE renamings to succeed. IMO, that rope fails silently might be viewed as more of a feature than a bug :). Anyway, I'm sure it will be improved.

Re: Reflections on IDEA vs VS Code

#385

Post by Shadonototro »

ex3ndr wrote: post #283
Shadonototro wrote: post #130

VSCode won't kill IDEA, but it is a huge warning for Jetbrains They better invest A LOT MORE into solving slow startup and performance issues that are plaguing their IDEs since the beginning Time to ditch Java on the desktop, or invest in a native AOT compiler / or use GraalVM

Java is not slow, even JS is not slow. 10% performance improvement doesn't make sense for rewrite.

java and JS are slow, it is how they work, they are JIT'd languages running in a VM, this alone makes the program slow by default

are people in this website not supposed to be programmers? or it's too late to expect programs to be fast again?

Re: Reflections on IDEA vs VS Code

#386

Post by [deleted] »

apple4ever wrote: post #359
quercusa wrote: post #183

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the textbook (i.e., The Innovator's Dilemma ) model for a disruptive technology is specifically one that starts out looking like it only competes in a different (typically lower-value) market, right until it's eating your lunch.

Yup. $200 per year (!!!) vs free is a world of difference.

[deleted]

Re: Reflections on IDEA vs VS Code

#387

Post by sidsidev »

tharkun__ wrote: post #247
sidsidev wrote: post #222

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're missing that the product makes no money. Thinking in terms of killing off competition is pointless when you're not referring to the strategy.

Good point. I don't think that necessarily matters too much though. You obviously can't just give everything away and not have a strategy to make money at all. That said, giving something away can still make you money or ensure that your competition does not make money either. This comes down to being a large enough entity to support that strategy, which I personally think Microsoft still is. If I'm Microsoft, I can…

I agree. Particularly with the first point. One of VSCode's big strengths is it runs on the web as well - it's easy to see it becoming a fully integrated cloud IDE (whether you run it in Electron or your browser), and then MS can sell VSCode Premium for $2/mo to integrate it with your corporate login etc.

Re: Reflections on IDEA vs VS Code

#388

Post by jen20 »

ex3ndr wrote: post #272
meddlepal wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I dont know how you’re productive with VS Code and Go... I watch my coworkers live code with it sometimes and they are struggling. The lang server crashes constantly and stuff like autoimports or code complete barely works. I sometimes want to scream while watching them struggle.

Same pretty much the same for JetBrains stuff. Constant screaming about how to configure their autoformatter compatible to prettifier for specific settings. Not supporting required configs out of the box. And build and IDE often live in completely different worlds. For example, project moodel at gradle and at IDEA is completely different and IDEA one is much more limited. And so on. Android Studio could hang whole ma…

> Constant screaming about how to configure their autoformatter compatible to prettifier for specific setting.

Assuming you mean “prettier” rather than prettifier (which a cursory Google did not show up as being a popular thing), the way to do this is to add a prettier config block to a package.json or a .prettierrc file, and then click “yes” when the IDE asks you “use code format based on prettier config”.

I did this not more than 10 minutes before writing this comment, on whatever the latest (shipping) version of IDEA available with whatever version of prettier came from `npm install` this morning - may save you a few mins next time the IDE is screaming at you.

Re: Reflections on IDEA vs VS Code

#389

Post by dmitryminkovsky »

sidsidev wrote: post #387
tharkun__ wrote: post #247

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Good point. I don't think that necessarily matters too much though. You obviously can't just give everything away and not have a strategy to make money at all. That said, giving something away can still make you money or ensure that your competition does not make money either. This comes down to being a large enough entity to support that strategy, which I personally think Microsoft still is. If I'm Microsoft, I can…

I agree. Particularly with the first point. One of VSCode's big strengths is it runs on the web as well - it's easy to see it becoming a fully integrated cloud IDE (whether you run it in Electron or your browser), and then MS can sell VSCode Premium for $2/mo to integrate it with your corporate login etc.

It’s incredible how it runs on the web. CodeSandbox is an awesome tool because it’s the same thing you use on your desktop (if you use VSCode). Just the other day I saw some post here wondering why you can’t “code in the browser” and uh, you can! Just go to CodeSandbox.

I suspect MS will be selling VSCode premium, as I mentioned elsewhere on this thread, they are already maintaining closed components.

Re: Reflections on IDEA vs VS Code

#390

Post by karmakaze »

SnowingXIV wrote: post #135
karmakaze wrote: post #126

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm the same way. Java/Kotlin in IDEA, front-end (js/ts/css) in VSCode, and Go can be either but usually VSCode. I don't really want/need more than what VSCode provides for it. For Ruby, I'm lost without RubyMine--I work on a huge codebase and lean on the superfast search (with default "*.rb, !*test*" files) a lot, usually restricted to a project subfolder. I'm really glad they renamed Gogland to GoLand--gland is wei…

I work on a large rails codebase as well but within a docker container doing emulation because ARM. How does RubyMine perform then? Last time I tried it felt sluggish.

Do you mean the search itself or other parts? Quite possible that I've become accustomed to the parts that are slower being used to IDEA. e.g. I accept the 'indexing' operation sometimes on startup or the now rare garbage collection pauses.
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