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NFTs Are a Dangerous Trap

seths.blog

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Re: NFTs Are a Dangerous Trap

#331

This article by the author/podcaster Seth Godin [1] highlights the issues with Non-Fungible Tokens (NFT) [2], built on the Ethereum cryptocurrency. It extends the ideas introduced in an Everest Pipkin post [3]: > Cryptocurrencies and NFTs are an absolute disaster for so many more reasons than the ecological. The ecological issue is due to the energy consumption required to perform (some^) cryptocurrency computations.…

Except there are non-ETH NFTs which don't consume much electricity and the author is specifically talking about some of them - like NBA Topshots - while pretending they all have large consumption.

Re: NFTs Are a Dangerous Trap

#332
post #295

NFT's are Bullshit: https://samim.io/p/2021-03-05-non-fungible-tokens-nft-are-bu... In Summary: 1. The NFT doubles down on the worst of copyright, the property metaphor, & tries to impose old ideas of scarcity & exclusion on the digital realm, where both are obsolete. 2.NFTs are an absolute ecological disaster

I know it sounds catchy to say that NFTs are an ecological disaster, but that statement is sensational and not accurate.

NFTs do not cause carbon emissions themselves, just like you don't add carbon emissions by occupying a seat on a public transportation bus. The bus is doing its daily route and has a fixed amount of emissions per day whether it has any occupants or not. This analogy breaks quickly, so I wouldn't look too much into it.

Maybe a better analogy is to think of your WiFi router. Its energy use is (predominantly) static regardless of how many packets you route through it. So by browsing, you are not causing additional carbon emissions.

In more technical terms: more transactions do not cause more hashrate. Ethereum's CO2 footprint does not scale with transactional count. So asking people to use the network less will not cause the hashrate to go down. The only way you reduce energy consumption is by getting miners to mine less, which triggers the protocol to adjust the mining difficulty accordingly. As laid out above, this has nothing to do with how many transactions are happening on ETH, or whether NFTs are being minted on it.

Re: NFTs Are a Dangerous Trap

#333
This represents a reasonable-sounding surface view but is mostly off the mark. There are valid concerns but insufficient logic to justify a dangerous trap.

O/P TLDR:

1. Art is silly too but it's ok for Real Art because we've done it that way for a long time

2. It'll become a soulless money-grab

3. Buyers don't understand scarcity

4. It's killing the environment

re #1 (Art):

> You either own this thing or you don’t.

This logic just doesn't make sense and seems backwardly purist. Status conveyed by owning original editions of physical art doesn't just come from having it sitting on your wall where you can show it to 3 people a week, it's from making sure people know you own an original edition (art as flex, art as humble brag). In the digital world there is tons of status to claim using mediums beyond that narrow view and that's fine.

And the point:

> Owning a Honus Wagner card doesn’t mean you own Honus Wagner. Or a royalty stream or anything else but the card itself.

Why should you limit your thinking on what art can be and why it's valuable to people based on an old model? The "other stuff" which can be layered in increases its value substantially to some segments of buyers and there's no reason the artist shouldn't benefit from this.

re #2 (Paying creators):

> CREATORS may rush to start minting NFTs as a way to get paid for what they’ve created.

Why shouldn't creators get paid!? This is a very top-down, privileged argument. The biggest impediment for most creatives to creating their creations is usually worrying about monetization! Why shouldn't we try to get them paid as much as possible with as little work as possible so they can go back to making the things we love?

Chris Dixon had a good post [https://a16z.com/2021/02/27/nfts-and-a-thousand-true-fans/] about how NFTs allow more fine-tuned segmentation among different fan groups, allowing artists to gain more from their work while simultaneously satisfying the market. Seth is a marketer who understands segmentation intimately, so I have to imagine this is an oversight.

The embedded fear here is that we'll corrupt the purity of art by finally allowing creators to have a business model, and to be fair it's one that will probably see some crazy bubble dynamics and abuses. But that's well worth it if the world becomes a more creative place by introducing better tools to monetize creation and community.

re #3 (buyers don't get scarcity):

> BUYERS of NFTs may be blind to the fact that there’s no limit on the supply.

And buyers of stock may be blind to the fully diluted EPS of the shares they're buying... what's the point? Again, there's a reasonable embedded fear that we'll get over our skiis and convince people or imply things that aren't true, resulting in consternation, but this isn't sufficient to call NFTs a "Dangerous Trap"

re #4 (Environment):

> They use an astonishing amount of electricity to create and trade.

This is a fully Ethereum-centric view of the world but today Ethereum isn't the only chain. Ethereum is only used for NFT minting right now because it had years to build up tooling but it is unsuitable for creators because transaction fees run in the $50 range just to transfer tokens and >$100 to mint, so obviously creators are desperately looking for alternatives. And they're out there -- I work on the NEAR project (near.org) which is Proof of Stake, has purchased offsets to become fully carbon neutral, and is cheap enough to test in prod. Look where the ball is going, not where it is today!

Sorry for the rant. We need the biggest voices to present a more nuanced case for this technology.

Re: NFTs Are a Dangerous Trap

#334
As many others here have pointed out, we stumble upon a fundamental issue with blockchains here. The thing that's inside the blockchain can be verified but as long as it points to something in the physical world or to be more precise, outside the chain, you have a weak link. People can ignore to respect the NFT, or simply choose to reject it. Tokens in themselves have no intrinsic value, unlike a painting, a commodity (like gold or even uranium). Of course, there is one exception to this; money. That's why bitcoin was a slightly better idea (but it suffers from different problems in my opinion). The ultimate conclusion for me at least is this one, ownership, art, justice (legal blockchains, smart contracts), these are all social problems and they cannot be solved with mere technology. Technology may help of course, but in the end I strongly believe that social problems require social solutions, not technical ones. For instance, consider bitcoin, with a 51% attack you could gain control over the chain, with PoS big stakers have control, this means you just traded the bankers of today with some other bankers. In the case of NFT, you could have a token that indicates you're the owner of a painting, but if that painting is stolen and sold by people who don't care about your NFT, what's the point? Stealing, in this case is a social problem, not a technological one.

Re: NFTs Are a Dangerous Trap

#335

So, lets think, we have following issues: - Climate change - Artificial general intelligence - Biotechnology risk - Ecological collapse - Molecular nanotechnology - Nuclear holocaust - Overpopulation - Global pandemic - ... Most of them caused by way we use our energy and time. Oh, yes we also have excess of computing power ... hm what shell we do? Solution: Let spend even more energy on large calculations in order t…

[deleted]

Re: NFTs Are a Dangerous Trap

#336
post #323

So, lets think, we have following issues: - Climate change - Artificial general intelligence - Biotechnology risk - Ecological collapse - Molecular nanotechnology - Nuclear holocaust - Overpopulation - Global pandemic - ... Most of them caused by way we use our energy and time. Oh, yes we also have excess of computing power ... hm what shell we do? Solution: Let spend even more energy on large calculations in order t…

Teaching people that being "rich" is not a goal would help in the progress. The goal is enough: a point when one still yearns, so they can progress, but they don't suffer or live in fear for losing warmth, shelter, food, etc. But this idea seems far from the majority of the US mindset, and it's polluting many parts of the world as well.

"Shelter" sounds like a modest expectation, but at least for me, and a lot of other people, a decent level of "shelter" requires you to be pretty well off. The average house here in the UK costs £~305k, so a mortgage on that requires like 30k deposit + 60k income, which means being a top 10% earner. I've no real aspiration to be "rich" in a superyacht sense, but I would like to be able to remain in my home city and own a modest flat, which requires me to be rich.

Re: NFTs Are a Dangerous Trap

#337
post #242

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, not really. (without license terms saying so not even the former, but those can be a thing)

If so, then it would actually be legally and morally ok for the artist to do a «double sell» as I describe in my original comment. It would be like i.e. selling a signed copy of a book to one person (the NFT) and the underlying copyright (the sales contract) to another person.

If there's no legally binding contract attached that you won't do it, then it should be just fine to sell as many instances as you want, no? In the absence of a contract you're just buying a unique tag, not the work itself.

Re: NFTs Are a Dangerous Trap

#338
post #323

So, lets think, we have following issues: - Climate change - Artificial general intelligence - Biotechnology risk - Ecological collapse - Molecular nanotechnology - Nuclear holocaust - Overpopulation - Global pandemic - ... Most of them caused by way we use our energy and time. Oh, yes we also have excess of computing power ... hm what shell we do? Solution: Let spend even more energy on large calculations in order t…

Teaching people that being "rich" is not a goal would help in the progress. The goal is enough: a point when one still yearns, so they can progress, but they don't suffer or live in fear for losing warmth, shelter, food, etc. But this idea seems far from the majority of the US mindset, and it's polluting many parts of the world as well.

Desire for superiority over other people is instinctive. I don’t believe it’s something that can be “taught” out of existence.

Re: NFTs Are a Dangerous Trap

#339
post #320

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> NFTs make perfect sense for representing a claim on things that can be used, like event tickets or in-game virtual goods. There’s absolutely no reason for that to be decentralized, only one party can honor the tokens anyways. Like most things crypto they don’t actually make sense for anything.

There is a reason. Just not a technical one. It becomes obvious when you ask the simple question: why hasn't it already been done? The answer is that it's in no actor's local incentives to create the public commons. Why is there no global market place for reselling digital event tickets? Certainly Ticket master and the other retailers could agree on an open standard protocol, pay for a centralized clearing house, and…

The example you give - reselling tickets, is actually something that is directly something ticket sellers want to discourage, crypto doesn’t solve that.

Re: NFTs Are a Dangerous Trap

#340
post #243

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One random idea I had was to use cryptomining to “soak up” excess power: so, for example, you could build nuclear out to meet peak load and then set up mining rigs to use the difference between peak and the current load, subsidizing the cost of power production. It’s probably a bad idea for other reasons, but it’s one way to reduce the environmental impact of PoW

Yup, this idea has already been explored, eg. here is an example of environmentally net-positive way of mining: https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2019-12-06/why-bitco...

I don't see it as a net positive unless you believe high energy cost crypto is of high value to society. You have a large environmental impact in building out and maintaining a mining facility and transport infrastructure thereto, as well as the ongoing waste all the way down to the food put into the pieholes of the humans running the facility.
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