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Californians aren’t leaving the state en masse but are leaving San Francisco

latimes.com

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Re: Californians aren’t leaving the state en masse but are leaving San Francisco

#361

Post by refurb »

mbgerring wrote: post #311
_-david-_ wrote: post #300

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What makes you think that things are going to change? I don't live in SF, but things look like they are getting worse.

What happens when the only people left in a city are the ones who truly love it and want it to be as good as it can be?

No offense but this comes across as a little naive. If you go visit the parts of SF that people don’t talk about, you pretty quickly realize the wealthy (tech folks included) are a very small slice of the city and live in their own bubble of trendy restaurants and jaunts out to Tahoe.

Most people are lower or middle class families struggling to get by and even if they didn’t “love” SF they don’t have a lot of options when it comes to leaving.

Re: Californians aren’t leaving the state en masse but are leaving San Francisco

#362

Post by runawaybottle »

heterodoxxed wrote: post #283
giantrobot wrote: post #162

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If someone is addicted to drugs they don't get to just stop doing drugs without a lot of work on their part and usually a lot of outside help. If someone has addiction issues you can't just give them a job offer and assume all their problems are solved. No matter how thankful or earnest they are in moments of sobriety their addiction tends to have an overwhelming hold over their behavior. Addiction is not just an idl…

Exactly. "I tried to help some cancer patients by giving them jobs and the occasional free meal, but a lot of them just ended up dying of cancer anyways." The day America stops treating addiction as an individual moral failing and starts treating it as a lifelong disease and a collective social failing is the day we finally start to address these issues.

Correction:

They day we start dealing with it is the day when your kids are addicted. Until then, it’s not our problem.

I’m not sure which drug it’s going to be. Maybe Adderral or Vyvanse being gateway into higher dose amphetamines, or something, but it’s gonna have to be a common drug amongst most of the kids before we take addiction seriously.

Re: Californians aren’t leaving the state en masse but are leaving San Francisco

#363

Post by michtzik »

dcolkitt wrote: post #309
jake891 wrote: post #232

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The incarceration rate of SF county is higher than any country or major city in Europe. Persecution ain’t the issue. Lack of housing, healthcare and honourable work is.

Even if you released every prisoner in America, besides the rapists and murderers, the US would still have a higher incarceration rate than Europe. I'm sure the SF specific numbers would tell a similar story. You can't simply compare European to American incarceration statistics without taking into account that the US is an extremely criminal country for the developed world. And no, this doesn't have to do with unive…

As a counterargument to the claim that Europe is less violent than the United States, especially over a historical period going back to the 18th century: Nazi Germany murdered more people in a single named process than the total number of murders in the United States for the entire 20th century.

Re: Californians aren’t leaving the state en masse but are leaving San Francisco

#364

Post by robotresearcher »

michtzik wrote: post #363
dcolkitt wrote: post #309

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Even if you released every prisoner in America, besides the rapists and murderers, the US would still have a higher incarceration rate than Europe. I'm sure the SF specific numbers would tell a similar story. You can't simply compare European to American incarceration statistics without taking into account that the US is an extremely criminal country for the developed world. And no, this doesn't have to do with unive…

As a counterargument to the claim that Europe is less violent than the United States, especially over a historical period going back to the 18th century: Nazi Germany murdered more people in a single named process than the total number of murders in the United States for the entire 20th century.

An estimated 12 million Africans were forcibly shipped to the US (and precursors) and they and their descendents enslaved for generations.

Did you forget to count them?

I’m not minimizing the evil of the Nazi murders. Just pointing out the US started out with a fundamental violence problem of incredible scale.

Re: Californians aren’t leaving the state en masse but are leaving San Francisco

#365

Post by gligorot »

sn41 wrote: post #77
tppiotrowski wrote: post #45

I never understood why companies paid the living costs of SF instead of locating in the Midwest or smaller cities. Someone told me it’s because SF is where all the talent goes so it would be unwise to locate elsewhere. Maybe COVID has revealed that geography is not as important to success as people believed.

1. Closeness to the Stanford university ecosystem which promoted tech. Berkeley isn't too far away physically, though it may not be very near ideologically. Talent helps. 2. Matthew Effect: The (talent-)rich (cities) get richer. 3. Weather. I have lived at some point in the midwest. Shovelling snow in a morning storm so that you can get in the car to go to office is not something I'd want to do again. Maybe Denver ha…

Could you clarify more on the ideological differences between Stanford and Berkeley? Also other universities. I had no idea that something like that even exists. Are they (also) different on the political spectrum or in some other area?

Re: Californians aren’t leaving the state en masse but are leaving San Francisco

#366

Post by vfrz10 »

sn41 wrote: post #77
tppiotrowski wrote: post #45

I never understood why companies paid the living costs of SF instead of locating in the Midwest or smaller cities. Someone told me it’s because SF is where all the talent goes so it would be unwise to locate elsewhere. Maybe COVID has revealed that geography is not as important to success as people believed.

1. Closeness to the Stanford university ecosystem which promoted tech. Berkeley isn't too far away physically, though it may not be very near ideologically. Talent helps. 2. Matthew Effect: The (talent-)rich (cities) get richer. 3. Weather. I have lived at some point in the midwest. Shovelling snow in a morning storm so that you can get in the car to go to office is not something I'd want to do again. Maybe Denver ha…

I'm not sure about 4. in a corporate setting. In academia, maybe, but in corporate physical meetings the person with the greatest reality distortion field uses them to his/her way.

Which is the purpose of these meetings.

Re: Californians aren’t leaving the state en masse but are leaving San Francisco

#367

Post by globular-toast »

ralusek wrote: post #299
maybelsyrup wrote: post #173

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm wondering what you think of the idea that the people we call "liberal" in this country aren't really all that "leftist" - they're just more left than our "conservatives". This is especially true for economic beliefs, I find. Like, ask an Italian communist (they still exist!) whether Joe Biden is a leftist and he'll choke from laughter on his ravioli. And after all, Barack Obama's world leader bff wasn't some Gree…

Liberalism isn't a leftist ideology, why on earth would you expect a liberal to be a leftist?

This is what happens when several orthogonal concepts are distilled into two categories. Nobody actually knows what left or right actually mean. Originally it was just about economic policy, left being larger government, right being smaller (no party was extreme because that's insane). Now right can also mean authoritarian or racist. To many it's simply left=good, right=bad.

Re: Californians aren’t leaving the state en masse but are leaving San Francisco

#368

Post by pbourke »

ralusek wrote: post #299
maybelsyrup wrote: post #173

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm wondering what you think of the idea that the people we call "liberal" in this country aren't really all that "leftist" - they're just more left than our "conservatives". This is especially true for economic beliefs, I find. Like, ask an Italian communist (they still exist!) whether Joe Biden is a leftist and he'll choke from laughter on his ravioli. And after all, Barack Obama's world leader bff wasn't some Gree…

Liberalism isn't a leftist ideology, why on earth would you expect a liberal to be a leftist?

The terms have lost all meaning in contemporary American discourse. “Socialist”, “liberal”, “leftist”, “progressive” are just used either as a pejorative or arbitrary categorical unrelated to any prior representation.

To a “progressive”, “liberal” is a pejorative. To a “liberal”, “leftists” are the enemy. To “the right”, all 4 words mean the same thing and are interchangeable in usage.

Re: Californians aren’t leaving the state en masse but are leaving San Francisco

#369

Post by carmen_sandiego »

efnx wrote: post #287
carmen_sandiego wrote: post #250

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That the most liberal place has such disparity, I assume.

I agree that’s not irony, and cities will often have the highest disparity simply by having more people.

Tokyo is the biggest city in the world. 10x the population of SF. Not that many homeless addicts lying around, and the average skilled worker doesn't make that much. I can name you 50 cities bigger than SF that don't have this problem.

So it seems the correlation between population size and 'rich people literally stepping over needled addicts' is not that strong.

Re: Californians aren’t leaving the state en masse but are leaving San Francisco

#370

Post by brokenkebab »

addicted wrote: post #352
atweiden wrote: post #239

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just to add some colour to this: This. I moved outside of Portland a few months ago after three serious incidents on my property involving violent vagrants. In all three cases the police took over an hour to show up and did absolutely nothing. I had a man trying to break in to my backdoor. When I confronted him and demanded that he leave, he began swinging punches and pulled out a knife. I managed to restrain him and…

How would that situation be improved if cops were required to spend time and energy pursuing cases where a kid stole a packet of gum from a convenience store? The fact that cops aren’t responding to cases of violence has nothing to do with the shoplifting laws passed in SF, and frankly, that law should explicitly open up more resources for cops to be able to investigate such violent behavior. What exactly in Portland…

Not pursuing "small" - quoted because up to $950 is rather big chewing gum really - crimes creates wrong incentives, and it skews general culture of (dis)respect to law, and property. Essentially normalizing bad behavior will inevitably affect bigger crimes happening. Taking into account that it especially influences youth (breaking rules is cool enough when you're teenager, if you can shoplift without punishment it starts to look like an invitation) we are witnessing a crime problem growing for a at least a generation ahead.

EDIT: "chewing gun" to "chewing gum". Guns are usually not chewy for certain.

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