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Reflections on IDEA vs VS Code

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Re: Reflections on IDEA vs VS Code

#271

Why are desktop Java apps are always so slow? Applications written in other languages (C#, C++, etc.) are much much faster. Even VS Code, written in JavaScript is faster... I tried hundreds of applications and this was always the case and not just with certain applications.

My best analogy for this is to think of Java as like a truck and other languages as like vans (C++) or motor scooters (python, etc). Past a critical threshold Java has absolutely amazing performance (sits in same league as C/C++) but if you imagine driving a large truck around town ... you are constantly starting and stopping, turning into alley ways etc - a truck is not going to do too well. But if you actually have to deliver 50 tons of goods, good luck on the scooter. And a well designed Java app can behave like a scooter but its not the default setting because most people in enterprise settings have truck-like problems.

However the slowness of Java on the desktop is a bit overblown by people's past experience I think .... improvements to garbage collection and hotspot optimisation, and elimination of applets have certainly made a big difference to the type of stalls that used to make people say these things.

Re: Reflections on IDEA vs VS Code

#272
post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Interesting. I have used IntelliJ for Java for as long as I can remember and can't imagine using anything else. For JS and Go I use VSCode. I wonder if it's just what I started with and am used to. I've tried to use Intellij a couple of times for Go, but end up back on VSCode.

I dont know how you’re productive with VS Code and Go... I watch my coworkers live code with it sometimes and they are struggling. The lang server crashes constantly and stuff like autoimports or code complete barely works. I sometimes want to scream while watching them struggle.

Same pretty much the same for JetBrains stuff. Constant screaming about how to configure their autoformatter compatible to prettifier for specific settings. Not supporting required configs out of the box. And build and IDE often live in completely different worlds. For example, project moodel at gradle and at IDEA is completely different and IDEA one is much more limited. And so on.

Android Studio could hang whole mac while "indexing" and often need to "reset caches and restart" while works just fine in VS Code.

Re: Reflections on IDEA vs VS Code

#273

My take with VS Code is that their support of development container and ssh is the best and it's a killer feature. My ultimate goal for quite sometime now was to pack all my development dependencies inside containers or cloud-init files to keep my host bare-bone and have reproducible/shareable setups anywhere anytime. Before I was an Emacs fan. I tried multiple combination of Emacs, Tramp and containers but it failed…

I desperately wanted VS Code's remote development functionality in IDEA, and was keeping track of their remote development feature in YouTrack. When CodeWithMe was released, I was sorely disappointed. All I wanted was my code to run anywhere, and my local machine to be the IDE. mutagen.io ended up being my answer. After learning how it worked, I got it set up and it works really well. I'm mostly doing PHP development…

I've spoken to some Jetbrains employees and it seems their vision of remote development is nothing like what VSCode does. No matter how much I explain they just don't seem to understand the advantages of being able to host the IDE in a docker container/remote system. "Docker isn't supposed to be used for that, you deploy to a container, not develop inside one" they say.

Re: Reflections on IDEA vs VS Code

#274
post #30

I used to think VS Code was going to be a threat to JetBrains IDEs considering how fast its iterative development was (thanks in large part to the productivity of JS + Web renderer) but its never seems to quite be able to reach the feature-set, polish & intelligence of JetBrains IDEs. Every IDE function appears to be better implemented in JetBrains, whether it's Code Analysis, Refactoring, Navigation, Running/Debuggi…

Jetbrains IDEs performance is so abysmal I quickly get annoyed and move to something else. Same with XCode.

I find VSCode to be the most feature rich editor whose speed I can tolerate. VSCode is by no means ideal in terms of resource consumptions or startup speed but the community picked up VSCode for the golden path in the languages I code with (rust, node.js, frontend js) and using other lighter editors is a significant downgrade.

Sublime was incredibly promising but it's not enough feature wise for my experience. I'd literally throw money into a native and more performant/lightweight VSCode.

Re: Reflections on IDEA vs VS Code

#275
post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Part of it feels like it comes from a different development philosophy. Vscode is a "text editor" or a "code editor". Usually this means that it's fairly lightweight, supports every language under the sun, is highly configurable and extensible, but doesn't have a lot of very in-depth features, and also partially relies on third-party extensions for deeper functionality. Jetbrains on the other hand works on IDEs built…

I wonder if you have had the chance to use a Jetbrains IDE with a professional license. Doing so gives you access to more or less the content of all the other "flavors" as plugins (it's basically all IntelliJ underneath). For example, I've been using PyCharm for both our python backend _and_ our React + Typescript frontend, all in the same project window, with the same features regarding syntax, linting, refactoring,…

There are some contradicting layout schemes across the languages and for that I'm glad Jetbrains provides the language specific flavors.

Re: Reflections on IDEA vs VS Code

#276
post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Part of it feels like it comes from a different development philosophy. Vscode is a "text editor" or a "code editor". Usually this means that it's fairly lightweight, supports every language under the sun, is highly configurable and extensible, but doesn't have a lot of very in-depth features, and also partially relies on third-party extensions for deeper functionality. Jetbrains on the other hand works on IDEs built…

I wonder if you have had the chance to use a Jetbrains IDE with a professional license. Doing so gives you access to more or less the content of all the other "flavors" as plugins (it's basically all IntelliJ underneath). For example, I've been using PyCharm for both our python backend _and_ our React + Typescript frontend, all in the same project window, with the same features regarding syntax, linting, refactoring,…

There is most certainly a lot baked into the language-specific editors that isn’t in IDEA proper.

That said, the fact that they all share IDEA’s gubbins makes it massively easier to jump between languages and frameworks for small jobs than I ever thought would be possible.

Having a set of tailored environments that also share keybindings and most common features makes for a fantastic (and really under-appreciated) value proposition.

Re: Reflections on IDEA vs VS Code

#277
post #30

I used to think VS Code was going to be a threat to JetBrains IDEs considering how fast its iterative development was (thanks in large part to the productivity of JS + Web renderer) but its never seems to quite be able to reach the feature-set, polish & intelligence of JetBrains IDEs. Every IDE function appears to be better implemented in JetBrains, whether it's Code Analysis, Refactoring, Navigation, Running/Debuggi…

I agree, I also think sibling comment about vs code being a generic text editor is a fair point.

I’ve tried to move to vs code several times as I like using the “default” (same reason I use Ubuntu) but webstorm is just better IMO.

Re: Reflections on IDEA vs VS Code

#278
post #30

I used to think VS Code was going to be a threat to JetBrains IDEs considering how fast its iterative development was (thanks in large part to the productivity of JS + Web renderer) but its never seems to quite be able to reach the feature-set, polish & intelligence of JetBrains IDEs. Every IDE function appears to be better implemented in JetBrains, whether it's Code Analysis, Refactoring, Navigation, Running/Debuggi…

Not sure how many devs code in a single language these days. I go back/forth between Go, Dart, and C++ every day, so using one IDE like VSCode (with the familiar features from extensions to shortcuts to snippets) is a big help.

Jetbrains provides plugins for Intellij that support almost every other language they have a "dedicated IDE" for. That's what I do and it supports almost every language I throw at it. The exceptions that I know of are Rider and parts of Android Studio

Re: Reflections on IDEA vs VS Code

#279
The original text has been deleted. Here is the copy: =============================== Reflections on IDEA vs VS Code

The story of IDEA vs VS Code is a story of low-end disruption, straight from the textbook. There is an emergent competitior that is not yet feature-rich but it is not elephantine yet and its technology has an unique advantage. The key technology here is probably the Language Server Protocol; it offloads programming language related smarts directly to the compiler (typically), thus relieving the IDE from supporting a hundred programming languages with all their warts and twists. As the compiler is the ultimate authority on the matters of language, that seems like a wise move: reusing instead of reimplementing. The other technology is Electron and, by extension, a browser engine based GUI. Given how much money was put into browsers, that is probably the most mature multiplatform GUI framework in existence.

That situation may catch the IDEA family between a rock and a hard place: it has to outdo compilers on one side and browser engines on the other side. Specifically, in their primary line of business. Which may easily become an unwinnable bet.

So far it looked like textbook low-end disruption, except for one thing: the disruptor is an old fat incumbent while the disrupted party is a (relatively) young emergent competitor. That is the funny part. Clearly, the MS leadership has read the book.

What bothers me about JetBrains is the fact that they seem to be playing along. Judging by the talks on their recent conference, IDEA goes more elephantine, more corporate, more complex. That is easy to understand: a corporate user pays a lot. But, that is the classic low-end disrupted trajectory that leads to the very same corner where IBM DB2 sits. They will retain some deep pocketed customers, but all the interesting things will be happening somewhere else.

In this regard I will mention two announcements: the CodeWithMe technology and a lightweight "IDEA viewer" product. CodeWithMe allows one IDEA instance to run another instance remotely to allow for collaborative work. Even the color scheme and the shortcuts are provided by the master instance, if I understood that correctly. That is very Java and very corporate, no doubt. The IDEA viewer is another step in the same direction: let the IDE run somewhere else, maybe on a server, and let people use a lightweight client "on a laptop in a cafe". I seriously doubt it will work well in an average cafe though. Their WiFi tends to be unreliable. Given this degree of dependence of the client machine, spotty WiFi will cause a developer to smash his laptop against the coffee machine. Then, the developer will have to pay for both. I experienced similar issues with JetBrains YouTrack in the past: it was an awesome issue tracker, unless you use a poor connection or the server is too far away. Then, it was unnerving. So I assume, that will be stress-free on a wired connection only. Whether the developer is using a laptop or a workstation is of secondary importance then: it is wired. Still, that feature fits some corporate behavior patterns, so it may entrench IDEA better in that environment.

In addition to the rock and the hard place, IDEA seems to be caught in one more aspect. GitHub is now a MS property, so in the future VS Code is expected to be more and more integrated into GitHub. That pretty much catches all the young and hip audience in a MS owned behavior loop. Which certainly shows some very competent strategic planning. Meanwhile, JetBrains seems to be staying afloat mostly thanks to hard work and sheer luck.

Re: Reflections on IDEA vs VS Code

#280

Mmm... Feels more like a loss leader than a technical disruption. Don’t get more wrong; look at Teams, it clearly works to offer a low/zero cost inferior product that is integrated into existing products, so fair call. ...but all that technical stuff? Oh come on; the jetbrains products are better, at basically everything; the only reason more people dont use them is that you have to actually pay for them. Sure, vscod…

I pay subscription for everything but 99% of time use VS Code. Why? Remote execution for huge typescript project - i moved it to separate mac mini and performance (i can open 5 VS Code without slowing anything at all)
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