Zero Data App • Hacker News Board

Re: Zero Data App

#61

Post by GhostVII » Sat, Mar 06, 2021, 3:12 PM UTC

jeswin wrote: post #51

As someone dabbling with such an app right now, there are several hurdles if you want to exclusively use self sovereign identity. 1. Local data gets lost, so you need to sync for backup. But when your device gets lost or when you need to access it from elsewhere, how would you login to the said backup service? The most intuitive option is still a username and a password. 2. It's hard to transfer data from one device…

For (1), why not have all your devices sync up when they are on your local wifi network? If your phone automatically backs up to your NAS, and syncs with your home desktop, your data should always be up to date and backed up in multiple places. Then if you really have to sync while not being at home, you could do something over ssh/using a vpn.

Re: Zero Data App

#62

Post by ridaj » Sat, Mar 06, 2021, 3:15 PM UTC

That was one of the principles that made me enjoy https://www.hashapass.com, a password manager with zero storage. Not even local storage, because then you'd have to deal with backups.

I'm glad to see so many applications follow such a principle, though whenever I use something like it I remain scared of not doing backups right.

Re: Zero Data App

#63

Post by EamonnMR » Sat, Mar 06, 2021, 3:18 PM UTC

GhostVII wrote: post #61

jeswin wrote: post #51

As someone dabbling with such an app right now, there are several hurdles if you want to exclusively use self sovereign identity. 1. Local data gets lost, so you need to sync for backup. But when your device gets lost or when you need to access it from elsewhere, how would you login to the said backup service? The most intuitive option is still a username and a password. 2. It's hard to transfer data from one device…

For (1), why not have all your devices sync up when they are on your local wifi network? If your phone automatically backs up to your NAS, and syncs with your home desktop, your data should always be up to date and backed up in multiple places. Then if you really have to sync while not being at home, you could do something over ssh/using a vpn.

That's a great idea, have you got recommendations for specific apps to use? Also, what's the setup for backing up your NAS?

Re: Zero Data App

#64

Post by jeswin » Sat, Mar 06, 2021, 3:18 PM UTC

GhostVII wrote: post #61

jeswin wrote: post #51

As someone dabbling with such an app right now, there are several hurdles if you want to exclusively use self sovereign identity. 1. Local data gets lost, so you need to sync for backup. But when your device gets lost or when you need to access it from elsewhere, how would you login to the said backup service? The most intuitive option is still a username and a password. 2. It's hard to transfer data from one device…

For (1), why not have all your devices sync up when they are on your local wifi network? If your phone automatically backs up to your NAS, and syncs with your home desktop, your data should always be up to date and backed up in multiple places. Then if you really have to sync while not being at home, you could do something over ssh/using a vpn.

Very few people have a NAS. Even among the tech literate, there aren't that many people who use SSH or VPN. If this isn't transparent to the user, you'll see very marginal adoption.

Re: Zero Data App

#65

Post by loceng » Sat, Mar 06, 2021, 3:18 PM UTC

ethbr0 wrote: post #57

laurent123456 wrote: post #50

The message is good but the name makes no sense, and is almost the opposite of what’s described. In a traditional web app, the client has zero data, or just some cache. But in a "zero data app", in the way they mean it, the app has all the data, so certainly not "zero". Go explain the concept to someone unfamiliar with it with a nonsensical name like this.

It's zero data from the perspective of large tech entities. All terms aren't coined exclusively to speak to developers. ;)

Indeed it seems it's not meant to be taken literally - as I was confused and thought this might be satire at first.

Re: Zero Data App

#66

Post by ianopolous » Sat, Mar 06, 2021, 3:20 PM UTC

jeswin wrote: post #51

As someone dabbling with such an app right now, there are several hurdles if you want to exclusively use self sovereign identity. 1. Local data gets lost, so you need to sync for backup. But when your device gets lost or when you need to access it from elsewhere, how would you login to the said backup service? The most intuitive option is still a username and a password. 2. It's hard to transfer data from one device…

If you're looking for secure sharing of private data on IPFS you should check out Peergos [0][1][2]. Disclaimer - I'm a co-founder. The model there is each user needs at least one Peergos instance storing their data, normally their home-server. We've designed it so that people should never have to see an encryption key, or cryptographic hash, nor know what pinning is. As far as apps go, we plan to build a sandbox and api in the browser for running untrusted apps served directly from Peergos which you can grant fine grained permissions to your data in Peergos. The sandbox here would be designed so an app couldn't even exfiltrate data via loading an external img tag.

[0] https://peergos.org

[1] https://book.peergos.org

[2] https://github.com/peergos/peergos

Re: Zero Data App

#67

Post by Vinnl » Sat, Mar 06, 2021, 3:21 PM UTC

brabel wrote: post #49

gibsonf1 wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We are developing both server and apps for [3] https://solidproject.org/ The effort is backed by Tim Berners Lee, with great auth libraries including dPop and PKCE token exchange

Once you authorize an app to use your data, how can you check if the app is not "syncing" everything with their backend?

If it's a web app, you can check whether it's sending data anywhere but your Pod - but of course, by then it's too late.

In practice, Solid is only the technology that enables control of your data; it doesn't provide the incentives. It's still up to apps to actually provide you with that control, and reasons for it doing so can include customer demand or regulatory pressure.

But Solid can't force apps to give you control - after all, they might just choose not to use Solid in the first place.

Re: Zero Data App

#68

Post by Vinnl » Sat, Mar 06, 2021, 3:26 PM UTC

hankchinaski wrote: post #59

when looking at different data management approaches i see the following: - third party manages encryption keys and data custody, users manage none (dropbox, G drive et al) - third party manages data custody, users manage encryption key (e2e encryption, icedrive, pcloud, 1password etc) - third party manages none, user manages data custody (and eventually encryption) (0data and more generally "storing files in your co…

I can't speak for all projects listed here, but usually with option 3 you can also choose to e.g. pay someone to do the hosting for you and effectively get option 2, provided that data is not stored locally and can be encrypted.

Re: Zero Data App

#69

Post by ClumsyPilot » Sat, Mar 06, 2021, 3:34 PM UTC

ethbr0 wrote: post #57

laurent123456 wrote: post #50

The message is good but the name makes no sense, and is almost the opposite of what’s described. In a traditional web app, the client has zero data, or just some cache. But in a "zero data app", in the way they mean it, the app has all the data, so certainly not "zero". Go explain the concept to someone unfamiliar with it with a nonsensical name like this.

It's zero data from the perspective of large tech entities. All terms aren't coined exclusively to speak to developers. ;)

So it makes no sence to anyone except large tech entities.

Are they the target audience?

Re: Zero Data App

#70

Post by ClumsyPilot » Sat, Mar 06, 2021, 3:39 PM UTC

satyrnein wrote: post #58

addicted wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This isn’t true of the vast majority of files. People could do a lot with their photos, videos, music and movie files that were stored in standardized formats on their hard disks. Witness the plethora of music and movie players, the tools formed around images and video browsing and manipulation, etc. Even non standardized stuff like word and excel documents could be shared, backed up, organized using these files.

I imagine that most users dramatically prefer the sharing, backup, and organization capabilities of proprietary cloud apps to local files. You are correct of course about apps that were able to interoperate on standard file formats, but I think most of those workflows were fairly complicated for typical users.

"I imagine that most users dramatically prefer the sharing, backup, and organization capabilities of proprietary cloud apps to local files."

My mother has burned family photos to optical disk 20 years ago, we have physical photos that lasted generations. Tell me which app or cloud product I can trust with data for my grandchildren?

Which app will not dissapear, be discontinued, ban you or delete my data if I stop paying?

I uploaded my medical records to microsoft health, now it's all gone.

Paying with credit is convenient, voting in demagogues and populaists is convenient, blind patriotism is convenient, signing contract without reading is convenient, but they all have consequences.