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Zero Data App

0data.app

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Re: Zero Data App

#51

Post by jeswin »

As someone dabbling with such an app right now, there are several hurdles if you want to exclusively use self sovereign identity.

1. Local data gets lost, so you need to sync for backup. But when your device gets lost or when you need to access it from elsewhere, how would you login to the said backup service? The most intuitive option is still a username and a password.

2. It's hard to transfer data from one device to another. And to asynchronously share data with friends and family. Solutions like ipfs exist, but in practice they rely on many centralized services (eg: for pinning). And besides, securely sharing private data is not an option on any of them.

3. Lay people being able to safely handle cryptographic keys is an unrealistic assumption.

So IMHO, perfect 0-data is not going to happen. It used to work earlier (pre-internet) because we had only one device, didn't have a lot of media, and could carry floppy disks for the rare occasion.

What I think would make a difference is: browser apps being able to do TCP/UDP (with safe-guards) and sandboxed local disk-access. This allows web apps to do things like SSH, and login to the vast storage infrastructure that already exists - such as GitHub. Data remains fully under your control and becomes portable. Git IMHO is a better path to where Solid wants to go. Especially once SHA256 commit hashes land - to become your personal, consensus-less blockchain.

Re: Zero Data App

#54

Post by for_i_in_range »

I believe Obsidian (https://obsidian.md) follows this principle. That app, and ones like it (Foam the open source VSCode version) have introduced me to the field of Personal Knowledge Management. I believe these two tools help one lead a wiser life. Regardless of outcome, they’ve made learning and thinking fun again, at least for me.

Re: Zero Data App

#55

Post by 600frogs »

Jugurtha wrote: post #46
600frogs wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'd argue that if the data is that specific to the app (e.g. which trees and courses of Duolingo you've completed), then if the app dies, the data is irrelevant. Either the data is useful outside the context of the app, in which case it tends to have standard formats (.png for images, .md for formatted text, etc), or the data is not useful outside of the context of the app (e.g. Duolingo) in which case the data is no…

As I said, the examples you chose are for the simplest use cases, and fungible applications/features for which the raw data is pretty much the whole thing and having a database dump is enough. Valuable applications more often than not simplify complex things or do hard things behind the scenes. Their value is in the workflow/experience or the processing that takes place on the data, including APIs and integrations to…

The only example you gave for app such as you describe was Duolingo, for which I pointed out that the data is useless outside the context of the app.

For business applications, the conversation may be different, but for the consumer ("average non-techie" as the original comment said) I believe what I said holds true.

Re: Zero Data App

#56

Post by judge2020 »

addicted wrote: post #42
satyrnein wrote: post #22

Pre cloud, this was just apps and local files. Just because an app stored a file on your hard drive didn't mean you could do anything useful with it outside that app, if it was a proprietary format. I'm not sure the typical user misses dealing with files.

This isn’t true of the vast majority of files. People could do a lot with their photos, videos, music and movie files that were stored in standardized formats on their hard disks. Witness the plethora of music and movie players, the tools formed around images and video browsing and manipulation, etc. Even non standardized stuff like word and excel documents could be shared, backed up, organized using these files.

> Even non standardized stuff like word and excel documents could be shared, backed up, organized using these files.

Yet you couldn't collaborate on or generate a link to these files - sharing them with your family or a coworker most likely meant starting an email chain mailing the file back and forth with changes.

Re: Zero Data App

#57

Post by ethbr0 »

laurent123456 wrote: post #50

The message is good but the name makes no sense, and is almost the opposite of what’s described. In a traditional web app, the client has zero data, or just some cache. But in a "zero data app", in the way they mean it, the app has all the data, so certainly not "zero". Go explain the concept to someone unfamiliar with it with a nonsensical name like this.

It's zero data from the perspective of large tech entities.

All terms aren't coined exclusively to speak to developers. ;)

Re: Zero Data App

#58

Post by satyrnein »

addicted wrote: post #42
satyrnein wrote: post #22

Pre cloud, this was just apps and local files. Just because an app stored a file on your hard drive didn't mean you could do anything useful with it outside that app, if it was a proprietary format. I'm not sure the typical user misses dealing with files.

This isn’t true of the vast majority of files. People could do a lot with their photos, videos, music and movie files that were stored in standardized formats on their hard disks. Witness the plethora of music and movie players, the tools formed around images and video browsing and manipulation, etc. Even non standardized stuff like word and excel documents could be shared, backed up, organized using these files.

I imagine that most users dramatically prefer the sharing, backup, and organization capabilities of proprietary cloud apps to local files.

You are correct of course about apps that were able to interoperate on standard file formats, but I think most of those workflows were fairly complicated for typical users.

Re: Zero Data App

#59

Post by hankchinaski »

when looking at different data management approaches i see the following:

- third party manages encryption keys and data custody, users manage none (dropbox, G drive et al)

- third party manages data custody, users manage encryption key (e2e encryption, icedrive, pcloud, 1password etc)

- third party manages none, user manages data custody (and eventually encryption) (0data and more generally "storing files in your computer")

the 0data is just like going back to what we used to do a decade or two ago and we all know it has its drawbacks (data can be lost, stolen, corrupted, difficult to move)

the most popular data custody model where a third party has total control over our data but we don't also has its drawbacks (data misuse, data breach, data mining, data transfer etc)

the second approach which i am surprised not a lot of providers adopt is where we delegate data custody to a third party but we still have e2e encryption over the data contents also has its drawbacks (data can be lost if keys are lost) but it's what i think it's more compelling compared to this 0data philosophy.

Re: Zero Data App

#60

Post by dannyw »

hankchinaski wrote: post #59

when looking at different data management approaches i see the following: - third party manages encryption keys and data custody, users manage none (dropbox, G drive et al) - third party manages data custody, users manage encryption key (e2e encryption, icedrive, pcloud, 1password etc) - third party manages none, user manages data custody (and eventually encryption) (0data and more generally "storing files in your co…

There's another option that can be combined with 2 and 3: run your own personal cloud, whether using Synology, Qnap, nextcloud, etc.

If you have terabytes of data to store, it can work out significantly cheaper.

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