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Ask HN: Is abuse from supervisors as common in industry as in academia?

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Re: Ask HN: Is abuse from supervisors as common in industry as in academia?

#61

Post by analog31 »

chriskanan wrote: post #23

I'm a professor and have worked in industry. Let me break down the issues a bit on the education side, first. Almost always by year 4+ most PhD students are fatigued and starting to get very weary. I was definitely one of them, and at times I did feel like my supervisor wasn't helping my career development or giving me enough mentoring. He is a wonderful, kind, and creative person and he spent 1-2 hours per week with…

>>> The first thing I did when I became a professor was write up an expectations document, and when students want to join my lab I walk them through it, and even then we do a trial run if they still want to.

A relative of mine got his PhD with a prof who was kind of famous for such a document, and all of his students continued that tradition in their own labs. Of course you know the drill. Part of it is to influence your students, but the other part is to influence yourself.

Re: Ask HN: Is abuse from supervisors as common in industry as in academia?

#62

Post by kome »

loceng wrote: post #39
chriskanan wrote: post #23

I'm a professor and have worked in industry. Let me break down the issues a bit on the education side, first. Almost always by year 4+ most PhD students are fatigued and starting to get very weary. I was definitely one of them, and at times I did feel like my supervisor wasn't helping my career development or giving me enough mentoring. He is a wonderful, kind, and creative person and he spent 1-2 hours per week with…

Is 1-2 hours per week really that much? I suppose they also spend additional time reading what you've written, along with revisions, etc?

it's good if my advisor give me 30m every 6 months :)

(sigh...)

Re: Ask HN: Is abuse from supervisors as common in industry as in academia?

#63

Post by temp8964 »

sokoloff wrote: post #26

I think there’s a default assumption in academia that students bring the motivation and perspiration to their work. The advisor doesn’t pull them through the program; the student pushes and the advisor guides. My spouse and several friends have PhDs and I do not, so my exposure is secondhand, but when I hear that circle of friends/friends-of-friends complaining about poor advisors, I often hear details about the grad…

Some people fail to grasp the idea that the world does not always work surround them. And they have a very different definition of "abuse" than others, which basically goes to: you are abusing me if you don't actively take care of my emotions. For those people, it is much easier to find "abuses".

Academic supervisors are not your personal friends. They have no interest in observing your emotions, because they have a millions other things to take care of. Negative comments about you is very likely based on their subjective assessment of you. And the reason they don't talk about those to you and give you advise, is probably that you have a history of failing to accept negative assessments. Your have "needs" to finish your degree and progress to your next career stage doesn't mean you are qualified for advancing, nor you are entitled of help from your supervisors who may not be satisfied with your work or talent.

I think it is also part of fault on the cultural. Teachers / advisors just can't directly tell you how bad you are. This creates generation of students are only used to positive comments and can't take negative comments.

----

Another point to add: because of the political environment and MeToo movement and such, it becomes more dangerous for academic supervisors to develop personal relationship with their graduate students. Especially those graduate students who need emotional support, can appear to be way more dangerous to get involved with than other students. And nerdy professors' confidence of appropriately handling relationship with those students could be zero. So the potential risk of taking private meetings to talk with you through things is just way too high to overlook.

Re: Ask HN: Is abuse from supervisors as common in industry as in academia?

#64

Post by xtracto »

loceng wrote: post #39
chriskanan wrote: post #23

I'm a professor and have worked in industry. Let me break down the issues a bit on the education side, first. Almost always by year 4+ most PhD students are fatigued and starting to get very weary. I was definitely one of them, and at times I did feel like my supervisor wasn't helping my career development or giving me enough mentoring. He is a wonderful, kind, and creative person and he spent 1-2 hours per week with…

Is 1-2 hours per week really that much? I suppose they also spend additional time reading what you've written, along with revisions, etc?

I did my PhD in the UK and the communication structure with my supervisors was:

1st year: we had a 1 hour meeting every week

2nd year we had a 1 hour meeting every 2 weeks

3rd year (1t hslf) we had a 1 hour meeting every 2 weeks

3d year 2nd half onwards we had a 1 hour meeting if I emailed them and asked them for it

If I needed more time I could always knock on their door. And oftentimes we went to have lunch for informal meetings.

Now, i always felt my supervisors were absolutely amazing. But i quickly understood that to complete my PhD, i needed to scratch with my own hands and that my sups were there only to guide me.

All in all my experience was great. Nevertheless after finishing and doing 4 years as a postdoctoral i decided the "publish or perish" mentality was not for me, and moved to industry.

Re: Ask HN: Is abuse from supervisors as common in industry as in academia?

#65

Post by phdonewiththis »

chriskanan wrote: post #23

I'm a professor and have worked in industry. Let me break down the issues a bit on the education side, first. Almost always by year 4+ most PhD students are fatigued and starting to get very weary. I was definitely one of them, and at times I did feel like my supervisor wasn't helping my career development or giving me enough mentoring. He is a wonderful, kind, and creative person and he spent 1-2 hours per week with…

Thank you for this perspective. My supervisor is in many ways a caring and kind person, and I appreciate his job (and yours!) is difficult and has lots of pressures, many of which are invisible to trainees. But at the same time, I can't imagine being in his role and treating trainees as he's treated me or others. I hope to keep that feeling with me as I progress in my career so that I don't subject people over whom I have power to the same treatment that I've experienced through grad school.

Re: Ask HN: Is abuse from supervisors as common in industry as in academia?

#66

Post by phdonewiththis »

lvice wrote: post #35

I believe that abuse is more common in academia. A relationship between a supervisor and his direct reports, both in academia and industry, is impacted by the power that the supervisor can exert. The relationship between a supervisor and his PhD students is not the same as a manager and his direct reports in industry because: - The students are invested and committed into their PhDs for several years. It is much hard…

Thank you for this perspective.

There is no worse thing that, after so much work, feeling that you have no control over your situation and you have no margin to improve it, without significant additional sacrifices.

This crystallizes how I feel, and how many of my peers feel. We're all going to escape with our degrees, but many of the problems that arose because of the points you mentioned are completely unnecessary -- we can drive science forward and train the next generation of researchers without subjecting them to this.

Re: Ask HN: Is abuse from supervisors as common in industry as in academia?

#68

Post by ufmace »

I've never experienced or even heard of anybody experiencing anything I'd consider abuse in the industry - with "industry" meaning developing software for ordinary businesses.

IMO, this is all due to the conditions of the labor market. Any position that a lot of people want to do and doesn't require a lot of skill or experience will be a bad time. If you get into such a position, expect to be paid little, worked long hours, replaced on somebody's whim, and various types of abuse will be common. On the other hand, positions that aren't that sexy and require skill and experience tend to pay well and treat people well.

Once you understand that, a lot of things become clear. You can predict the sub-areas of the industry that are likely to be worse work environments - game development, startups, etc. Boring line of business development is a much more pleasant environment.

Re: Ask HN: Is abuse from supervisors as common in industry as in academia?

#69

Post by xtracto »

lvice wrote: post #35

I believe that abuse is more common in academia. A relationship between a supervisor and his direct reports, both in academia and industry, is impacted by the power that the supervisor can exert. The relationship between a supervisor and his PhD students is not the same as a manager and his direct reports in industry because: - The students are invested and committed into their PhDs for several years. It is much hard…

This rings true. I would only add a comment I heard someone say: a PhD is not an investment. It is an expense. If you want to invest in your education do an MBA or get certificates. Those are investments that will pay off later. A PhD is an expense you pay to do whatever research you want to.

On the student lock to the PhD it may also be because students get scholarships. In my case my government gave be a scholarship to do the PhD. And at some point during the degree I pondered whether to continue, but I couldn't have stopped because I then would have to return the money I spent, which of course I didn't have. My supervisors were great. But one can imagine the pressure of having shitty supervisors on top of that.

Re: Ask HN: Is abuse from supervisors as common in industry as in academia?

#70

Post by benrbray »

sokoloff wrote: post #26

I think there’s a default assumption in academia that students bring the motivation and perspiration to their work. The advisor doesn’t pull them through the program; the student pushes and the advisor guides. My spouse and several friends have PhDs and I do not, so my exposure is secondhand, but when I hear that circle of friends/friends-of-friends complaining about poor advisors, I often hear details about the grad…

I think you are perhaps downplaying the role that mentorship and collaboration can play in one's career. All of the most successful graduate students I know are very driven, yes, but they also, more often than not, have an advisor who is invested in their success and belong to a strong support system of other students.

I'm not as quick as OP to start throwing the word "abusive" around, but I have witnessed a number of unhealthy student-advisor relationships. Sometimes it's because the advisor is facing a busy period in their own career and doesn't have time for the student, sometimes it's just personalities clashing.

I think you are missing the point if your belief is that the majority of students who don't succeed in graduate school just aren't driven enough. Even a motivated student needs assistance to focus that motivation on something productive.

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