Dark patterns after the GDPR: consent pop-ups and their influence • Hacker News Board

Re: Dark patterns after the GDPR: consent pop-ups and their influence

#151

Post by nicky0 » Sat, Mar 06, 2021, 6:54 AM UTC

pixelpoet wrote: post #147

okamiueru wrote: post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I for one welcome it. If a website has this popup, and it doesn't default to disabled tracking, and there are "legitimate interest" bullshit that cannot be turned off, I close down the website. I even uninstall apps (chess.com, here's looking at you). Just because website purposefully give a terrible UX in an effort circumvent the law does not mean the law is wrong. It's the implementation.

I have a sneaking suspicion that if you leave the site without doing its maze of opt-outs, then they go "oh great, user didn't opt out!" and you didn't even get to read what you were looking for.

Joke’s on them because all their cookies get deleted when I close the tab. And it’s not like I have a shortage of things to read.

Re: Dark patterns after the GDPR: consent pop-ups and their influence

#152

Post by makapuf » Sat, Mar 06, 2021, 6:59 AM UTC

josefx wrote: post #109

strictnein wrote: post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's weird how people keep claiming this. No one says that all sites should honor China's laws for visitors from China. No one claims that all sites should honor Saudi Arabia's laws for visitors from Saudi Arabia. But magically the GDPR must be followed by the entire world if a visitor shows up from France.

China has the great firewall, the EU tried something similar under the "think of the children" excuse, which promptly failed. Also a lot of people speaking out against China had to find out the hard way what some western companies will do when you speak out against a cash cow that will happily kick them out if its rules are enforced.

A firewall is not the only way to enforce this I'd guess. If I open a shop in China and do business here I might have to comply with local laws.

Re: Dark patterns after the GDPR: consent pop-ups and their influence

#153

Post by ssijak » Sat, Mar 06, 2021, 7:17 AM UTC

Crono wrote: post #131

I am working as a developer for a medium sized publisher in germany. Im pro GDPR and dont like the way the industry treats the users. But they just seem to continue on their course. Reaction on GDPR was very slow. Cookie Banners (before GDPR) where ignored. When GDPR was there we started to implement regular cookie banners - despite the warning from us developers that this would be illegal. The first real reaction on…

On the other hand if all their revenue is ad based, and they loose it, they will be out of business and you would lose that job too.

Re: Dark patterns after the GDPR: consent pop-ups and their influence

#154

Post by doctorfoo » Sat, Mar 06, 2021, 7:27 AM UTC

TeMPOraL wrote: post #122

unix_fan wrote: post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I feel like this is a point the HN crowd likes to ignore when it calls for governments to regulate certain aspects of tech. Do regulations like this really protect consumers, or just make their experience worse?

That point has been beaten to death here in case of GDPR, though. The problem isn't with regulation, but enforcement. The fines aren't applied nowhere near enough, so almost no site cares. The consumer experience being worse is, in a large way, purposeful UX degradation done by the sites themselves. The typical consent popup tries to simultaneously walk the line between "illegal under GDPR" and "just scummy" (often c…

Fully legal and compliant GDPR cookie warnings are also awful UX and a pain in the ass. This should have been done at the browser level.

Re: Dark patterns after the GDPR: consent pop-ups and their influence

#155

Post by musicale » Sat, Mar 06, 2021, 7:44 AM UTC

What exactly is meant by CHI 2020 Free Proceedings if they are actually paywalled?

I don't know if it's a "dark" pattern much as an "inaccurate" pattern....

https://chi2020.acm.org/chi-2020-free-proceedings/

Actual paper from 2nd author web page: https://people.csail.mit.edu/ilaria/papers/Midas-MITCHI2020....

(I was under the impression that all ACM conference papers with NSF grant numbers in the acknowledgments would automatically be added to CHORUS, but this one seems to be missing.)

Re: Dark patterns after the GDPR: consent pop-ups and their influence

#156

Post by sergefaguet » Sat, Mar 06, 2021, 7:45 AM UTC

This highlights why governments are impotent: - it has been 5 years since GDPR was implemented to great fanfare - by the time of implementation data mining has been going on for many years - 5 years after 90% of businesses use dark patterns that are non-compliant - actual fines and enforcement are negligible - maybe they will start enforcing more aggressively... after another 5 years

It is simply the case that large bureaucratic organizations are too slow and too incompetent to deal with rapidly changing technology. And the tech community sees this and has no respect for governments. How can you respect impotent Industrial Age structures today anyway?

My view is that by mid-century Western governments will be going bankrupt in droves since tech will optimize out their ability to collect taxes or inflate currency. Plus they will just be extremely behind the curve and become irrelevant to everyone’s tech-dominated lives.

It is tech companies that will lead the future. It doesn’t matter if this does not agree with pro-democratic sensibilities. Sensibilities will change and adapt to reality.

Re: Dark patterns after the GDPR: consent pop-ups and their influence

#157

Post by mrweasel » Sat, Mar 06, 2021, 7:51 AM UTC

wojciii wrote: post #47

justkez wrote: post #19

I recently purchased something from the official UK Nintendo Store [1]. I did not opt-in, and was not asked to opt-in, to marketing emails. Several days after purchase I received a marketing email with an Unsubscribe link. I submitted a GDPR enquiry and after a few weeks I get: Having investigated this matter fully, we can see that you were opted in as a result of a small technical difficulty which we are now fixing.…

I complained about tv2.dk (I used to be a customer) sending me a e-mail after I deleted my user and told them not the send me e-mail. This was a really bad experience where their support attempted to make me login to the site which I refused to do since I removed my user previously. Then I sent them a GDPR request to remove all my info and complained to the Danish Data Protection Agency. I stopped receiving e-mail bu…

Sad, I get that it might be to small a case to actually deal with, but most cases will be. Only in aggregate will complaints as your ever get anywhere.

On a positive note, I have noticed that deleting accounts have become much easier after the introduction of the GDPR, and more and more I see tracking opt-in/out forms where opt-out is just as easy as opt-in. So something is working.

Re: Dark patterns after the GDPR: consent pop-ups and their influence

#158

Post by wojciii » Sat, Mar 06, 2021, 7:57 AM UTC

mrweasel wrote: post #157

wojciii wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I complained about tv2.dk (I used to be a customer) sending me a e-mail after I deleted my user and told them not the send me e-mail. This was a really bad experience where their support attempted to make me login to the site which I refused to do since I removed my user previously. Then I sent them a GDPR request to remove all my info and complained to the Danish Data Protection Agency. I stopped receiving e-mail bu…

Sad, I get that it might be to small a case to actually deal with, but most cases will be. Only in aggregate will complaints as your ever get anywhere. On a positive note, I have noticed that deleting accounts have become much easier after the introduction of the GDPR, and more and more I see tracking opt-in/out forms where opt-out is just as easy as opt-in. So something is working.

This is actually a really good idea. A Trust Pilot type of site which is owned by a non profit or some such with no monetary interest in contrast to TP where GDPR issues toward companies can be created, shared on social media and executed automatically when a number of people agreed to complain about the same issue.

Re: Dark patterns after the GDPR: consent pop-ups and their influence

#159

Post by mrweasel » Sat, Mar 06, 2021, 7:58 AM UTC

macinjosh wrote: post #93

GDPR is a textbook example of how government intetvention in our business never ends in the way the technocrats desire/promise. It simply makes things more convoluted and difficult for everyone including those they claim to be protecting.

Given that the industry was never going to address the problem on their own, I don't see how there was ever an option other than government intervention.

The only company that sort of care is Apple. Without government intervention privacy would something reserved for wealthy.

Re: Dark patterns after the GDPR: consent pop-ups and their influence

#160

Post by NiceWayToDoIT » Sat, Mar 06, 2021, 7:59 AM UTC

I know two things:

- tracking cookies are bad and yes it is an issue. - GDPR and consent pop-ups are pain, surfing is becoming similar effort like moving through the mud.

Solution? I hope we can embed response in the browser, so you say once I do not want to be tracked not even for "legitimate interests" :P and then in background browser does the rest? How difficult is that?