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Dark patterns after the GDPR: consent pop-ups and their influence

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Re: Dark patterns after the GDPR: consent pop-ups and their influence

#81

Post by dominotw »

Bakary wrote: post #62
dominotw wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> fraud then take them to court and make a killing.

I sincerely doubt that much financial reward will come for any random individual doing this to any randomly selected website in that sample that does not meet the GDPR requirements. On one hand, you've technically got the right idea that I ought to put some skin in the game. On the other, it's a reasoning meant to shut down criticism on the same level as the infamous "yet you participate in society, curious!" comic

> I sincerely doubt that much financial reward will come for any random individual doing this to any randomly selected website in that sample that does not meet the GDPR requirements.

Then whats the point of GDPR if its not worth taking them to court. Is the idea that only govt can bring them to justice?

Re: Dark patterns after the GDPR: consent pop-ups and their influence

#82

Post by hinkley »

Bakary wrote: post #70
hinkley wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your top level post reads as if people who use 'dark patterns' as a term have an agenda, and that agenda is fraud and psychological manipulation.

I don't think everyone who uses that term has an agenda. I'm sure most have good intentions, or just are naturally attracted to new buzzwords. It just so happens the term does play into the agenda of those who have one and who manipulate others psychologically in this way. The whole topic is a sensitive one. I'm sure a sizeable number here on HN derive some direct or indirect profit from such practices (running, bein…

I think if someone puts the pauses at different spots than you, the grammar changes substantially. Reading your replies I figured it out, but it reads like not everyone caught that so I thought it might help you sort out some of the reactions you’re getting.

Re: Dark patterns after the GDPR: consent pop-ups and their influence

#84

Post by harrybr »

Bakary wrote: post #70
hinkley wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your top level post reads as if people who use 'dark patterns' as a term have an agenda, and that agenda is fraud and psychological manipulation.

I don't think everyone who uses that term has an agenda. I'm sure most have good intentions, or just are naturally attracted to new buzzwords. It just so happens the term does play into the agenda of those who have one and who manipulate others psychologically in this way. The whole topic is a sensitive one. I'm sure a sizeable number here on HN derive some direct or indirect profit from such practices (running, bein…

The term “dark pattern” refers to user interface design patterns. That’s where the “pattern” bit comes from. There was already a term for anti-pattern which referred to mistakes. I wanted a term that had a Machiavellian tone to it, so I chose “dark” (Star Wars, Harry Potter, why not?).

I’m not quite sure why this term proved to be so popular. I think it is helpful to have a term that is a little vague though, as it can be a lot of work to pin down whether something is truly deceptive with an outcome of harm - or just an annoying attempt to nudge.

Re: Dark patterns after the GDPR: consent pop-ups and their influence

#85

Post by MaxBarraclough »

The paper is paywalled. Is it freely available anywhere? edit arxiv's preprint: https://arxiv.org/pdf/2001.02479.pdf

Also, off-topic: it's annoying that acm.org has now added a horizontal progress bar, similar to QuantaMagazine.org. I already know how far through the article I am, my browser shows me a scrollbar.

Re: Dark patterns after the GDPR: consent pop-ups and their influence

#86

Post by Zak »

tobasq wrote: post #73
Zak wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can use it on Android with Kiwi Browser, a Chromium derivative. It used to work with Firefox, but it looks like Firefox still hasn't un-broken extensions on Android.

Looking at the source code suggests that Kiwi is based on Chromium 77. A shame; it's a great idea. We need a mobile browser with extensions.

I suppose that's getting a bit dated, but I'd have to be actively experiencing significant breakage to give up extensions for a browser update. I am not.

Re: Dark patterns after the GDPR: consent pop-ups and their influence

#87

Post by okamiueru »

planb wrote: post #69
ddddfdohvsyknn wrote: post #65

These regulations seem worse than nothing. We already have browsers, we can block and filter cookies based on our individual preference and adjust depending on our tolerance for privacy vs functionality. How has this changed the data collection practices of Facebook or Google in any meaningful way? Not enough people are asking what effect the many new regulatory burdens will have for the internet. It entrenchs the ex…

Why is this downvoted? This is exactly what happend. Speaking with non tech savvy users here in Germany, they feel safe and secure on Facebook and fear the „world wide west“ that the open Web has become, where you need to click 20 consent messages on every website without knowing what all that stuff means. This is just like EULAs - one more annoying thing they simply accept with a slightly bad gut feeling.

I for one welcome it. If a website has this popup, and it doesn't default to disabled tracking, and there are "legitimate interest" bullshit that cannot be turned off, I close down the website. I even uninstall apps (chess.com, here's looking at you).

Just because website purposefully give a terrible UX in an effort circumvent the law does not mean the law is wrong. It's the implementation.

Re: Dark patterns after the GDPR: consent pop-ups and their influence

#88

Post by simpss »

pixelpoet wrote: post #58

What absolutely infuriates me is this "legitimate interest" crap that is almost always hidden away, and often you have to scroll through literally hundreds of opt-outs with no way to disable them all in a single click. If I'm so damn "legimately interested", why is it on by default and basically impossible to turn off? Find me one person on this earth who is legitimately interested in being tracked by marketing compa…

It's usually a good hint that it really isn't a legitimate intrest case if they allow you to turn it off.

A legitimate intrest does not require an opt in (or an opt out). Consent does. If the page mixes those two up they're either clueless or trying to walk in the gray area and don't really understand(or don't want to understand) what either of those terms mean.

Re: Dark patterns after the GDPR: consent pop-ups and their influence

#89

Post by MaxBarraclough »

pixelpoet wrote: post #58

What absolutely infuriates me is this "legitimate interest" crap that is almost always hidden away, and often you have to scroll through literally hundreds of opt-outs with no way to disable them all in a single click. If I'm so damn "legimately interested", why is it on by default and basically impossible to turn off? Find me one person on this earth who is legitimately interested in being tracked by marketing compa…

As the paper states, the GDPR is comically unenforced. I doubt these 'legitimate interest' cookies are compliant with the law. In practical terms, they don't need to be. Nothing happens to websites that break the rules.

> The processing must be necessary.

https://ico.org.uk/for-organisations/guide-to-data-protectio...

Re: Dark patterns after the GDPR: consent pop-ups and their influence

#90

Post by harrybr »

Nextgrid wrote: post #31
rwcarlsen wrote: post #7

For me personally - all these popup banners and modal walls for websites about cookies and stuff just really make the internet a worse place. I suspect that empirically, they don't accomplish what the GDPR intended to - and they make the internet less enjoyable. Thanks GDPR.

The problem is that the GDPR is not being enforced properly. The GDPR explicitly bans annoying/misleading consent prompts, so this shouldn't be an issue if the law was enforced. It explicitly learned from the earlier "cookie law" which merely enforced disclosure and led to stupid & useless cookie banners with no easy way for the user to actually act on them.

Exactly. It’s amazing that this is not widely known. The deceptive GDPR pop-ups we all hate are not GDPR compliant!
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