Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Dr. Seuss books deemed offensive will be delisted from eBay

wsj.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

861–870 of 1001 posts

Re: Dr. Seuss books deemed offensive will be delisted from eBay

#861

Post by ben509 »

kstenerud wrote: post #628
wirrbel wrote: post #573

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Germany here, we banned Mein Kampf from being sold (used copyright law to do that). I once stood in a book shop (teenager, time to look at books but not enough money to buy them) and some skindheads wanted to buy it, it wasn't available. They went away. Providing context is good, but frankly also really difficult and why not just provide newer childrens books that are more inclusive.

Upvoted you to counter the downvotes since this actually does add to the discussion. It's important to remember that the power of Mein Kampf lies in its status as a symbol, not its actual contents. Nobody actually reads Mein Kampf, nor have they ever (just like nobody actually reads the Bible unless they're actual preachers). It was (and still is) about the personality cult of a strong man and his message of power vi…

> Nobody actually reads Mein Kampf ... It was (and still is) about the personality cult of a strong man and his message of power via blaming and oppression of minority groups, not the actual words themselves.

That's precisely why people should read it. That personality cult developed because Hitler's narrative of oppresion by Jews resonated so strongly.

> just like nobody actually reads the Bible unless they're actual preachers

Nonsense. Christians not only read it, but study it as a guide to life. There was an informal thing at my work where they'd read and discuss a passage every week or so.

Re: Dr. Seuss books deemed offensive will be delisted from eBay

#862

Post by NeverFade »

helsinkiandrew wrote: post #854
helsinkiandrew wrote: post #648

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's two kinds of freedom: freedom from and freedom to. These are some children's books that contain illustrations that some people find offensive and the publisher (and sellers) are deciding they no longer want to be associated with and sell to children. There are internet forums where the images are available and people can view them without the police knocking your door down, and I'm sure these are available in…

To be clear the "freedom from" I'm referring to here is the freedom for innocent bystanders - children in this case - not to see lazy racial stereotypes surreptitiously in what should be a funny book that either offends them or gives them a false/bad impression of those races. Throughout history society has decided what (legal) things are acceptable in public - public executions, graphic sexuality, violence. Today, (…

> To be clear the "freedom from" I'm referring to here is the freedom for innocent bystanders - children in this case - not to see lazy racial stereotypes surreptitiously in what should be a funny book that either offends them or gives them a false/bad impression of those races.

You do realize your comment perverts the very meaning of the word "freedom" to mean the opposite of its actual meaning, right?

You are "freeing" people from the freedom to access information and ideas you find unacceptable.

That is not freedom, that is the opposite of freedom.

Banning "unacceptable" ideas is the staple of Orwell's 1984, and appropriately, we are starting to use Newspeak as well: "Freedom is Slavery".

> Throughout history society has decided what (legal) things are acceptable in public

This is a dominant used book seller banning private individuals from selling a book to each other to read in private settings. Nothing about this is "public".

> This is different from Mein Kampf or Marquis de Sade, or Lolita

As if anyone will be surprised when our new commissar overlords at eBay and Amazon ban these books next.

Re: Dr. Seuss books deemed offensive will be delisted from eBay

#863

Post by UncleMeat »

krrrh wrote: post #468
tim333 wrote: post #6

The thing seems a bit silly. Curious what was offensive I found the books are on youtube and I'm guessing it's drawing Chinese https://youtu.be/Vl6wD6EGOVk?t=228 and tribal Africans https://youtu.be/Vl6wD6EGOVk?t=519 looking like cartoon versions of those. Does this means cartoon caricatures are only acceptable if they are of white westerners? I mean I can understand the publishers thinking they may get in trouble an…

> Does this means cartoon caricatures are only acceptable if they are of white westerners? They cancelled Apu from the Simpson’s without understanding that his presence on the show demonstrated a mainstreaming of Indian immigrants, in a similar way that the uncanceled Groundskeeper Willie, Mayor Quimby, and McBain demonstrate the mainstream acceptance of Scottish, Irish, and Austrian immigrants.

Didn't the Simpsons continue using Apu?

The documentary also explicitly discusses the "mainstreaming of Indian immigrants". It isn't something that is just ignored or missed.

Re: Dr. Seuss books deemed offensive will be delisted from eBay

#865

Post by __jem »

yerwhat01010 wrote: post #799
john_moscow wrote: post #297

I think, the social mechanics of this process is very simple. Ability to tell others what to do is called power. Some people are more power-hungry than others, so they seek ways to assert themselves over others. That's a perfectly normal human thing to do. What matters is the way you would achieve power in a society. Getting power through building up your name as a notable researcher or author is one thing. Playing f…

One of the authors of the "academic" papers which sparked this cancellation is on the board of a nonprofit that makes political children's books. The point is "Aufheben der Kultur" - the abolition of culture. They attack Seuss because he's a beloved children's icon and a common cultural reference point we love and share. The point is to permanently taint him so we no longer have that reference point, detaching us fro…

What is this random use of German? In any case, an Aufhebung has strong philosophical connotation that implies the process of synthesis -- so you're in luck, negation never fully destroys the thing it negates, it simply supersedes it.

Re: Dr. Seuss books deemed offensive will be delisted from eBay

#866

Post by jtbayly »

Kaze404 wrote: post #853
jtbayly wrote: post #816

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No. This was eBay, not a publisher. No. This was not completely unprompted.

Right, but what prompted it was the situation I described. Nobody asked for this.

Your comment is off topic. There is a reason we are discussing the article about eBay’s decision, not the publisher’s.

And do you work for the publisher? Or are you just pretending like you know that Karen never called the publisher?

Re: Dr. Seuss books deemed offensive will be delisted from eBay

#867

Post by ptero »

wirrbel wrote: post #573
major505 wrote: post #96

I don't know any culture that banned books independent of their content that people didn't regret in the future. A few months ago I was reading about schools banning the book "To Kill a Mockingbird" because it contains basically the "n" word. I'm not american, and and havent read that book. I watched the movie, through, and it seemed to me to be a very anti racism message. I think instead of banning, schools should w…

Germany here, we banned Mein Kampf from being sold (used copyright law to do that). I once stood in a book shop (teenager, time to look at books but not enough money to buy them) and some skindheads wanted to buy it, it wasn't available. They went away. Providing context is good, but frankly also really difficult and why not just provide newer childrens books that are more inclusive.

I am not sure that banning of Mein Kampf has a long-term benefit. If it has not been banned it would likely fade into obscurity instead of becoming a symbol.

As a counter-datapoint I grew up in a country that effectively banned religion. One could go to prison for selling a Bible -- subversive literature, yada yada. It worked for a while, but you cannot completely cut the flow of information from the world outside; so sooner or later people who did not have a strong opinion either way see such bans as unquestionably evil. And very soon after that the majority believes that the main reason for such bans is the inability to argue against the banned literature on merits.

I suspect that instead of letting the subject fade into obscurity such bans often provide the best advertising the topic can get. My 2c.

Re: Dr. Seuss books deemed offensive will be delisted from eBay

#868

Post by DocTomoe »

shlant wrote: post #858
DocTomoe wrote: post #818

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I plan to make my children toxic towards people denying other peoples basic human rights, directly and indirectly (e.g. by limiting access {e.g. by banning or burning} to books).

who's "basic human rights" are being denied here? Are you saying that the publisher of Dr.Seuss is committing human rights abuses by choosing not to publish some of the books THEY own the rights to? Also, maybe teaching your children to be toxic towards anything won't really improve the world they will have to live in?

Surpressing information is wrong. The publisher not publishing is a minor case here, the Karens and SJWs who make existing work disappear by having it banned from libraries and/or public marketplaces are the main enemy here.

Also, being tolerant to intolerance breeds autocratic and non free societies. A lesson mankind seems to have to learn over and over and over again. My children will be taught that you do not suffer the Nazi, the Communist, the self-righteous conservative calling for a ban or the SJW.

Re: Dr. Seuss books deemed offensive will be delisted from eBay

#869

Post by claudiawerner »

NeverFade wrote: post #862
helsinkiandrew wrote: post #854

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To be clear the "freedom from" I'm referring to here is the freedom for innocent bystanders - children in this case - not to see lazy racial stereotypes surreptitiously in what should be a funny book that either offends them or gives them a false/bad impression of those races. Throughout history society has decided what (legal) things are acceptable in public - public executions, graphic sexuality, violence. Today, (…

> To be clear the "freedom from" I'm referring to here is the freedom for innocent bystanders - children in this case - not to see lazy racial stereotypes surreptitiously in what should be a funny book that either offends them or gives them a false/bad impression of those races. You do realize your comment perverts the very meaning of the word "freedom" to mean the opposite of its actual meaning, right? You are "free…

>You do realize your comment perverts the very meaning of the word "freedom" to mean the opposite of its actual meaning, right?

It's not a perversion at all; in fact, this sense of freedom being more than raw ability to "do whatever you want" was recognized as early as Rousseau and possibly even earlier. This also led to the creation of the concepts of positive and negative liberty. "Freedom from" is absolutely a valid form of freedom, and a core one in our society. It's why things which aren't harms (and sometimes barely even hurts) are prohibited - public nudity, playing loud music on a bus, and other forms of nuisance. The canonical example is the fact that there is no harm-based reason to ban corpse desecration. In fact, it's a law based on the offence principle. There is some space in our society for laws like that, but we need to be careful with them, of course.

This case is even more benign - we have here a company refusing to sell these items. You speak of 'information and ideas', but these ideas can still manifest even on Ebay. No 'unacceptable idea' has been 'banned'. I'm not sure who you're saying is using Newspeak. As was pointed out by Marcuse in the 60s we're well past Orwell - now the contradiction is hidden in the noun itself.

What we describe as 'free societies' are full of restrictions on some freedom to ensure the development and use of greater freedoms. That's a core part of liberal society.

Re: Dr. Seuss books deemed offensive will be delisted from eBay

#870

Post by TrispusAttucks »

I wish society could embrace more the sentiment:

"I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it"

~ Evelyn Beatrice Hall

Because...

... "Then they came for me And there was no one left To speak out for me"

~ Martin Niemöller

Post reply on HN