Dr. Seuss books deemed offensive will be delisted from eBay • Hacker News Board

Re: Dr. Seuss books deemed offensive will be delisted from eBay

#731

Post by Udik » Fri, Mar 05, 2021, 10:28 AM UTC

pineaux wrote: post #709

Udik wrote: post #655

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> "utterly repugnant" You forgot to add: "to someone, probably a minority, possibly entirely wrong".

I have never understood why people add sentences like: "probably a minority" to their arguments. This is something that weakens your stand. Let me explain: If a minority (nerds/D&D-players,etc) gets bullied in school. Is them being a minority: A) a fact that aggrieves the bullying B) a non-relevant fact C) a fact that absolves the bullies from their wrong-doing? Because it seems like you are implying that it's option…

You went from someone claiming to find something "utterly repugnant" to a minority "being bullied". There's no necessary relation between the two. Because you don't know if the bullying is real, and if the minorities match. The relationship can easily go the other way around, for example a minority can claim to find gay marriage "utterly repugnant".

Re: Dr. Seuss books deemed offensive will be delisted from eBay

#732

Post by dudeinjapan » Fri, Mar 05, 2021, 10:31 AM UTC

Oh the places you'll go

...or maybe you won't

Those places aren't safe!

You should stay right at home!

A space that is safe

is all that you need!

With only safe books

safety-guaranteed to read!

No insensitive cartoons

Kids can't handle those

No Chinese men

in Chinese hats

and Chinese clothes!

Those books are problematic

Those books should be banned

Besides they're unpopular

There's no market demand!

Let's have them cancelled!

Let's have them delisted!

Let's burn them, unlearn them

and deny they existed!

It's the impact that matters

not the author's intentions

We'd better change the past--fast, fast!

before someone today gets offended

Re: Dr. Seuss books deemed offensive will be delisted from eBay

#733

Post by RaceWon » Fri, Mar 05, 2021, 10:31 AM UTC

I'm a 60 year old fan of Rap and Hip Hop... is Ebay going to delist Wiz Khalifa songs to name one artist. I won't quote the lyrics here, but his tunes often denigrate the ladies, and refer to them as paid sex workers. Let's talk about that.

Re: Dr. Seuss books deemed offensive will be delisted from eBay

#734

Post by dbuder » Fri, Mar 05, 2021, 10:33 AM UTC

kstenerud wrote: post #628

wirrbel wrote: post #573

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Germany here, we banned Mein Kampf from being sold (used copyright law to do that). I once stood in a book shop (teenager, time to look at books but not enough money to buy them) and some skindheads wanted to buy it, it wasn't available. They went away. Providing context is good, but frankly also really difficult and why not just provide newer childrens books that are more inclusive.

Upvoted you to counter the downvotes since this actually does add to the discussion. It's important to remember that the power of Mein Kampf lies in its status as a symbol, not its actual contents. Nobody actually reads Mein Kampf, nor have they ever (just like nobody actually reads the Bible unless they're actual preachers). It was (and still is) about the personality cult of a strong man and his message of power vi…

Orwell read Mein Kampf, he took it to Spain too. I've met people who have read the Bible, because it is the book of their religion. And I've met people who read the Bible and concluded that Christianity is hogwash because they read it.

Re: Dr. Seuss books deemed offensive will be delisted from eBay

#735

Post by avereveard » Fri, Mar 05, 2021, 10:34 AM UTC

"Dr Seuss should have built its own eBay"

- The hacker new community, if it wasn't a hypocritical bunch

But no, apparently the hive mind that cheered the private company actions when they suited their political belief, now are suddenly in full doublespeak figuring out a way to condemn this while supporting the former.

Re: Dr. Seuss books deemed offensive will be delisted from eBay

#736

Post by blackbrokkoli » Fri, Mar 05, 2021, 10:34 AM UTC

kstenerud wrote: post #628

wirrbel wrote: post #573

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Germany here, we banned Mein Kampf from being sold (used copyright law to do that). I once stood in a book shop (teenager, time to look at books but not enough money to buy them) and some skindheads wanted to buy it, it wasn't available. They went away. Providing context is good, but frankly also really difficult and why not just provide newer childrens books that are more inclusive.

Upvoted you to counter the downvotes since this actually does add to the discussion. It's important to remember that the power of Mein Kampf lies in its status as a symbol, not its actual contents. Nobody actually reads Mein Kampf, nor have they ever (just like nobody actually reads the Bible unless they're actual preachers). It was (and still is) about the personality cult of a strong man and his message of power vi…

Why would you not read it?

As you dive deeper into Nazi era history a lot is based around the question who knew what, how plausible the denial of that person or this organisation was. Seeing the publicly distributed book that may or may not contain specific details regarding plans for war or "The Jewish Question" for yourself is an excellent starting point, no? I agree with other commenters here that the read was not particularly good, but definitely insightful.

I actually do not agree that banning symbols is bad: Especially the Nazis really had a hand for designing good looking stuff, and that will bleed into pop culture if you don't stop it, unconsciously associating the Nazis with "cool". Just look at the Hydra organisation in the Captain America Movies or Japanese Anime, where using Nazi design language was obviously not taboo. Of course, as you said, banning a symbol does not eradicate it, but it does not have to to have positive effect.

Re: Dr. Seuss books deemed offensive will be delisted from eBay

#737

Post by cousin_it » Fri, Mar 05, 2021, 10:35 AM UTC

lgleason wrote: post #562

As dis-heartening as this story is, compared to a couple of years ago, it is encouraging to see lots of comments from people beginning to wake up to what is going on with this craziness and not being modded here. Free speech is about protecting the right of the un-popular and views that some may find utterly repugnant. Why? because, as we are seeing with all of the woke craziness, when you don't stand up for everyone…

I think the problem is also that people don't push back individually, even within their own minds. There's too much receptiveness to morality, and not enough of the stubborn "don't preach at me" attitude.

Re: Dr. Seuss books deemed offensive will be delisted from eBay

#738

Post by nathias » Fri, Mar 05, 2021, 10:36 AM UTC

helsinkiandrew wrote: post #648

lgleason wrote: post #562

As dis-heartening as this story is, compared to a couple of years ago, it is encouraging to see lots of comments from people beginning to wake up to what is going on with this craziness and not being modded here. Free speech is about protecting the right of the un-popular and views that some may find utterly repugnant. Why? because, as we are seeing with all of the woke craziness, when you don't stand up for everyone…

There's two kinds of freedom: freedom from and freedom to. These are some children's books that contain illustrations that some people find offensive and the publisher (and sellers) are deciding they no longer want to be associated with and sell to children. There are internet forums where the images are available and people can view them without the police knocking your door down, and I'm sure these are available in…

Freedom of speech is the most essential negative freedom (freedom from), it means you are not bound and limited by something external, while positive freedom is a right to something, like education or similar institutions. The freedom of a publisher to control what happens to sold books isn't at all part of negative freedom (freedom from).

I'm basing my understanding on the Two Concepts of Liberty by Isaiah Berlin.

Re: Dr. Seuss books deemed offensive will be delisted from eBay

#739

Post by thinkingemote » Fri, Mar 05, 2021, 10:36 AM UTC

YeBanKo wrote: post #615

The article gives absolutely no context as to why exactly these books were deemed offensive. > “books portray people in ways that are hurtful and wrong.” And this is it.

defining the offense is counteractive as it also defines the parameters for the discussion around it. Better instead to leave it vague so discussion is almost impossible. It also allows the offense to change over time.

Re: Dr. Seuss books deemed offensive will be delisted from eBay

#740

Post by crististm » Fri, Mar 05, 2021, 10:37 AM UTC

neartheplain wrote: post #358

jfengel wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They're not just cartoons. They're caricatures associated with racist tropes, which have been used in conjunction with discrimination and even violence. The African pictures in particular look like minstrel shows, which were deliberately intended to demean black people in America. It's not that the publishers were afraid of getting in trouble. It's that they were ashamed of their own book -- with good reason.

The African pictures also look like African people, such as the traditional dress of the Tharaka people of Kenya: https://www.gaiafoundation.org/app/uploads/2019/05/DSC_0150.... The book is explicitly depicting people from abroad, not African-Americans. As Dr. Seuss’s surviving family has attested to his character and wordliness, and his other books like “Horton Hears a Who” promote tolerance and the acceptance of mi…

Nitpicking and a pet-peeve but Elon Musk is an African-American. You probably mean "black". They are not from Africa simply because they are black and for clarity we should stop being politically correct (especially when critical-race theory is so keen on language defining reality)