Dr. Seuss books deemed offensive will be delisted from eBay • Hacker News Board

Re: Dr. Seuss books deemed offensive will be delisted from eBay

#621

Post by bryanrasmussen » Fri, Mar 05, 2021, 8:20 AM UTC

CodeGlitch wrote: post #610

wirrbel wrote: post #573

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Germany here, we banned Mein Kampf from being sold (used copyright law to do that). I once stood in a book shop (teenager, time to look at books but not enough money to buy them) and some skindheads wanted to buy it, it wasn't available. They went away. Providing context is good, but frankly also really difficult and why not just provide newer childrens books that are more inclusive.

Perhaps they would have read the book - realised it's complete trash and realised the error of their ways?

perhaps it's just anecdata, but none of the skinheads I've ever known seemed to be especially good at evaluating literary quality.

Re: Dr. Seuss books deemed offensive will be delisted from eBay

#622

Post by ValentinPearce » Fri, Mar 05, 2021, 8:21 AM UTC

umvi wrote: post #499

major505 wrote: post #96

I don't know any culture that banned books independent of their content that people didn't regret in the future. A few months ago I was reading about schools banning the book "To Kill a Mockingbird" because it contains basically the "n" word. I'm not american, and and havent read that book. I watched the movie, through, and it seemed to me to be a very anti racism message. I think instead of banning, schools should w…

Why ban it when you could just censor it like Agatha Christie's magnum opus

Censoring is not a solution, it's just hiding the problem.

It's important to know that saying someone is a nigger is bad but it's also important to remember that at some point it was perfectly normal.

Also, Agatha Christie's "Then Little Niggers" was at some point called "Ten Little Indians" depicting Native Americans instead as if that were any better.

It's now translated to And Then They were None nearly everywhere I thunk and the children's song speaks of 'Ten little Soldier Boys" which by today's standards feels pretty sexist.

Wouldn't an introduction presenting the context or footnotes be better than censoring something that, at the time, was normal but upon which we can now reflect ?

Re: Dr. Seuss books deemed offensive will be delisted from eBay

#623

Post by MrGilbert » Fri, Mar 05, 2021, 8:22 AM UTC

wirrbel wrote: post #573

major505 wrote: post #96

I don't know any culture that banned books independent of their content that people didn't regret in the future. A few months ago I was reading about schools banning the book "To Kill a Mockingbird" because it contains basically the "n" word. I'm not american, and and havent read that book. I watched the movie, through, and it seemed to me to be a very anti racism message. I think instead of banning, schools should w…

Germany here, we banned Mein Kampf from being sold (used copyright law to do that). I once stood in a book shop (teenager, time to look at books but not enough money to buy them) and some skindheads wanted to buy it, it wasn't available. They went away. Providing context is good, but frankly also really difficult and why not just provide newer childrens books that are more inclusive.

> Germany here, we banned Mein Kampf from being sold (used copyright law to do that).

For me, the original "Mein Kampf" was a rather boring book to read. Since 2016, it is possible to buy a commented version of this book. It's available with the ISBN 9783981405231 for 59 € in Germany.

Re: Dr. Seuss books deemed offensive will be delisted from eBay

#624

Post by [deleted] » Fri, Mar 05, 2021, 8:27 AM UTC

SV_BubbleTime wrote: post #267

major505 wrote: post #96

I don't know any culture that banned books independent of their content that people didn't regret in the future. A few months ago I was reading about schools banning the book "To Kill a Mockingbird" because it contains basically the "n" word. I'm not american, and and havent read that book. I watched the movie, through, and it seemed to me to be a very anti racism message. I think instead of banning, schools should w…

The word you are referring to is nigger. It’s a bad word that can be very offensive. It’s horrible to use it in a derogatory way, but I feel that it’s ridiculous in at least halfway intelligent conversation no one white even dare ever write it, let alone say it. As if white people have enforced themselves to just pretend the word has magic powers and it is the one who shall not be named. That’s giving an enormous amo…

[deleted]

Re: Dr. Seuss books deemed offensive will be delisted from eBay

#625

Post by globular-toast » Fri, Mar 05, 2021, 8:28 AM UTC

lgleason wrote: post #562

As dis-heartening as this story is, compared to a couple of years ago, it is encouraging to see lots of comments from people beginning to wake up to what is going on with this craziness and not being modded here. Free speech is about protecting the right of the un-popular and views that some may find utterly repugnant. Why? because, as we are seeing with all of the woke craziness, when you don't stand up for everyone…

It's not just about it being eventually turned on you. Someone else's freedom of speech is also your freedom to hear what they have to say. Otherwise you accept that someone else is deciding what you can and can't read.

Re: Dr. Seuss books deemed offensive will be delisted from eBay

#626

Post by roenxi » Fri, Mar 05, 2021, 8:29 AM UTC

m8s wrote: post #596

alentist wrote: post #584

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Censorship is the suppression of speech, public communication, or other information, on the basis that such material is considered objectionable, harmful, sensitive, or "inconvenient." Censorship can be conducted by governments, private institutions, and other controlling bodies. And the first amendment is not a definition of freedom of speech. Read it again.

I still don't see how stopping the sale of an item on a private company's platform equates to denying freedom of speech. If we were talking about a government banning the sale of a specific book, author, or topic, then I absolutely agree. If we are talking about that same government banning specific books from schools, then I absolutely agree. But I don't agree that eBay's move here is denying freedom of speech. They…

If the free speech argument had anything to do with laws, people would be advocating settling it in court.

The kerfuffle is about values and whether moral people have power.

Re: Dr. Seuss books deemed offensive will be delisted from eBay

#627

Post by vmception » Fri, Mar 05, 2021, 8:35 AM UTC

themolecularman wrote: post #455

vmception wrote: post #304

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah I was sad about that guy at a theme park that got fired for making an OK sign in a family's photo. Its like everyone forgot about the circle game, "the game", and went straight for white supremacy racist. I wanted to write in or call in, but it was too late. This one is crazy, but I have my own causes and that ain't one of them! I find it peculiar and I'm aware "they are coming for the trade unionists next" but…

> I find it peculiar and I'm aware "they are coming for the trade unionists next" but I think I can navigate this reality and stay out of the re-education camps. How? I think they'll get to you next. As commenters above pointed out, there is a "long march" through institutions before it starts trickling down.

a lot of people took the transfer agreement instead of tying their identity to their birth country. don't be like the ones that were married to their country, they got vanned and banned.

There were plenty of solutions to navigate before the .... last one. I think the parallels will hold pretty well this go-around, easily navigable options.

Re: Dr. Seuss books deemed offensive will be delisted from eBay

#628

Post by kstenerud » Fri, Mar 05, 2021, 8:39 AM UTC

wirrbel wrote: post #573

major505 wrote: post #96

I don't know any culture that banned books independent of their content that people didn't regret in the future. A few months ago I was reading about schools banning the book "To Kill a Mockingbird" because it contains basically the "n" word. I'm not american, and and havent read that book. I watched the movie, through, and it seemed to me to be a very anti racism message. I think instead of banning, schools should w…

Germany here, we banned Mein Kampf from being sold (used copyright law to do that). I once stood in a book shop (teenager, time to look at books but not enough money to buy them) and some skindheads wanted to buy it, it wasn't available. They went away. Providing context is good, but frankly also really difficult and why not just provide newer childrens books that are more inclusive.

Upvoted you to counter the downvotes since this actually does add to the discussion.

It's important to remember that the power of Mein Kampf lies in its status as a symbol, not its actual contents. Nobody actually reads Mein Kampf, nor have they ever (just like nobody actually reads the Bible unless they're actual preachers). It was (and still is) about the personality cult of a strong man and his message of power via blaming and oppression of minority groups, not the actual words themselves. People remember only simple things, and like simple reasoning and solutions, which is what made him popular in the first place.

So the banning of this book was an attack on the symbol (and only incidentally on the literature), and the banning of the symbol is of questionable value since it basically causes a Streisand effect. Banning a symbol only adds to its power. It might have been better to just ignore it, and instead focus on prosecuting the actual hate crimes themselves.

Re: Dr. Seuss books deemed offensive will be delisted from eBay

#629

Post by aylmao » Fri, Mar 05, 2021, 8:40 AM UTC

There's some interesting threads here. I do understand the conversation around free speech and censorship has been top of mind lately, but IMO a lot of the comments here are getting carried away and missing a point that is crucial in this instance: these are children's books.

As much as I disagree with book-burning and support not only free speech, but also the healthy debate around what it constitutes, I think all of that is rather unrelated to this specific article.

Children don't have the same context or critical capacity to decide if a view is good or not. If a child encounters some sexist commentary, the child will absorb and imitate it.

There's already a lot of institutionalized control over what children consume for this reason— from toys designed to stimulate their development and TV designed around safety and positive lessons, to school, where the curriculum is designed not only to develop mental ability but also healthy social skills. These are decisions institutions make, be it PBS, Hasbro, Scholastic, some bureau of education, etc.

Let's make sure we don't end up in a Fahrenheit 451 situation, sure. These books are still going to exist, nobody is burning them or punishing whomever reads them— let's keep it that way. But when it comes to content that's widely available for children, I think the already established approach of constantly revising and improving what is easy to consume is a good one, and we should keep doing it.

Re: Dr. Seuss books deemed offensive will be delisted from eBay

#630

Post by Number157 » Fri, Mar 05, 2021, 8:41 AM UTC

illirik wrote: post #592

anonisko wrote: post #567

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Too many people support the development of powerful weapons without considering what happens when their enemies get a hold of them.

The “weapon” here is just basic conscientiousness. A publisher decided to stop publishing some books because they denigrate people, and eBay decided that they did not want to be facilitating the sale of books that denigrate people. We are not talking about an H-bomb - there is no power structure wielding a “cancel button” here.

The weapon is censorship. Dictatorial governments supported by control over information have killed far more people than H-bombs.