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We Expect 300k Fewer Births Than Usual This Year in the US

nytimes.com

61–70 of 461 posts

Re: We Expect 300k Fewer Births Than Usual This Year in the US

#61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> should be treated as a reason to not make assumptions about others That's what checking ones privilege is. I'm in a position where my financial security, mental well-being, and future prospects would make it a good time for me to start a family if that was what I wanted. Same goes for many of my friends and colleagues, who have in many cases done exactly that I think this article shows that this security does not e…

But my point is that such a misunderstanding of other people is not a symptom of privilege, its a symptom of being human. You probably don't know how billionaires as a class (and generalising people by a demographic is overgeneralising too) are experiencing covid either, but that isn't a question of privilege. I guess I just don't like the idea of taking a universal human experience and casting it in terms of privile…

"Privilege" is a terrible word to have become entrenched for such a useful concept, because many people instinctively get their backs up about being told they're privileged when they don't have to face a challenge that someone else faces.

And it's not just a question of generalization, but a question of whose stories get told through the media. Whose lifestyles make it into the "lifestyle" section.

Re: We Expect 300k Fewer Births Than Usual This Year in the US

#62
post #54
post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

“a few more millennia” is basically nothing in terms of the planet’s history.

The entirety of human civilization is basically nothing in terms of the planet's history. That doesn't make it less important to me though.

to me it’s an important aspect. try as we might, we’ll still be subject to planetary forces outside of our control.

the planet is warming. we can delay it for a bit, but the planet will continue to warm no matter what we do.

of course we should manage our impact on the planet. but this will represent just a small delay in the grand scheme of things. a few generations, maybe even a few thousand years as you’ve put it.

but a multi generational effort to tackle either moving to a different planet or something like living underground will be needed.

unfortunately our extremely limited existence will make these efforts extremely hard to tackle.

Re: We Expect 300k Fewer Births Than Usual This Year in the US

#63

I'm surprised by this, as I had expected the opposite. Couples are spending a lot of time together being confined to their home without much entertainment, so I'd expected that to result in more baby making I guess the stress from the uncertainty of the future and lack of personal space more than countered that Time for me to adjust my assumptions about the world... And probably check my privilege, since I'm massivel…

> since I'm massively underestimating the impact the s/pandemic/lockdown has had on a large part of the population

Not having money or a stable income causes people to not have kids.

Re: We Expect 300k Fewer Births Than Usual This Year in the US

#64
Birthrates are a powerful, but lagging/post-hoc indicator of public policy effects. It's worth noting that we tend to associate high birthrates with poverty and negative social outcomes. Except, when rates are low we (western countries) use immigration from high-birthrate societies to shore up the population replacement rate, as the article notes. When you look at who is having kids in the US and Canada, the families, (or specifically, women) who have 2 or more children are either exceptionally wealthy (90th+ pc) or exceptionally poor.

I'd speculate this is because if you are either rich or poor you have stability in that your life circumstances aren't going to change that radically, and hypothesize it's mainly educated middle class people who are having kids below the population replacement rate, if at all, because their lives do not find a relatively stable equilibrium. The mix of the promise of upward mobility that is always just out of reach, and the risk of "losing it all," creates a condition of constant low-level stress similar to other species that do not breed in captivity.

If you have the Malthusian or environmentalist worldview that fewer people is better, this is a positive (if cynical) development. But even that's not going to work because public debt and entitlements mean shoring up a replacement rate population with immigration from high-birthrate societies. The other thing is the people who are having kids create even more polarized opportunity, where the life outcomes of a 3-kid wealthy home vs. the outcomes of a 3-kid working class or public-dependent home are going to be alien to each other. An (increasingly rare) person from a single-kid middle class home is not only a social minority, but has to create more of their own opportunities because they are an outsider to both societies.

IMO, the covid baby bust is only a symptom of a much larger and longer term macro-decline, and just the beginning of the real and inevitable consequences of the post-war baby-boom generation.

Re: We Expect 300k Fewer Births Than Usual This Year in the US

#65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But my point is that such a misunderstanding of other people is not a symptom of privilege, its a symptom of being human. You probably don't know how billionaires as a class (and generalising people by a demographic is overgeneralising too) are experiencing covid either, but that isn't a question of privilege. I guess I just don't like the idea of taking a universal human experience and casting it in terms of privile…

I agree that this type of misunderstanding is something every human experiences. Those assumptions will however impact my decisions - who I vote for, what charity I donate to, how I approach other people in life, etc My current situation is very safe and secure, so if I'm not aware that this is a privilege that is only enjoyed by a small subset of the population, my assumptions could lead me to making decisions that…

Maybe rather than expanding your assumptions one checked privilege at a time, just drop your assumptions altogether? You simply can't know the experiences of others; even direct communication only transfers a very loose approximation of experience, and that's if both sides are both communicating earnestly and are skilled communicators. So if you can't know the experience of just one person then you certainly can't group people by their experience.

Generalisations are a poor substitute for empathy and curiosity.

But that's all very abstract so to concretise my point:

> Those assumptions will however impact my decisions - who I vote for, what charity I donate to, how I approach other people in life, etc

I try to support people who don't play zero sum games, who create lasting systemic changes. Some fraction of most political movements are based on this, while other parts are about tribalism - so try to back leaders who want what's best for all.

To cast people in terms of privilege is to make moral judgements on people based on pure circumstance.

And approach people as if you know nothing about them - because you don't. To think you know something about someone you don't know is literally the textbook definition of prejudice.

Re: We Expect 300k Fewer Births Than Usual This Year in the US

#66
post #24
post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is very hard to understand why your comment was downvoted this badly. I thought everyone understands that the planet is overpopulated as it is and that bringing as many children into the world as possible is not a net positive.

it's not overpopulated. this is a myth that has been going on since the 1970s: https://www.vox.com/the-big-idea/2017/12/12/16766872/overpop...

> it's not overpopulated.

I'm sorry, but this is just a ridiculous statement to make, except maybe if our opinions on what overpopulation means are vastly different.

Re: We Expect 300k Fewer Births Than Usual This Year in the US

#68
post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But my point is that such a misunderstanding of other people is not a symptom of privilege, its a symptom of being human. You probably don't know how billionaires as a class (and generalising people by a demographic is overgeneralising too) are experiencing covid either, but that isn't a question of privilege. I guess I just don't like the idea of taking a universal human experience and casting it in terms of privile…

"Privilege" is a terrible word to have become entrenched for such a useful concept, because many people instinctively get their backs up about being told they're privileged when they don't have to face a challenge that someone else faces. And it's not just a question of generalization, but a question of whose stories get told through the media. Whose lifestyles make it into the "lifestyle" section.

> Privilege" is a terrible word to have become entrenched for such a useful concept, because many people instinctively get their backs up about being told they're privileged when they don't have to face a challenge that someone else faces.

I think people get their backs up because privilege checks as a concept are based largely on stereotypes/generalisations and confrontational behaviour, not empathic individual relating.

> And it's not just a question of generalization, but a question of whose stories get told through the media. Whose lifestyles make it into the "lifestyle" section

That's because the mainstream media is, by definition, normative - so it caters to what are considered cultural norms. The great thing about the Internet (and one of the good things about the postmodern breakdown of the metanarrative) is that while there are still dominant cultural norms, they're not standards to live up to anymore in the sense they might have been in the modern era. We're fragmenting into subcultures of subcultures where everybody can find a place where others share their tastes or beliefs. I find the idea that competing narratives have to share space in the mainstream media to be a strangely modernist-apologetic approach for a (progressive) movement that could do much better by embracing the breakdown of the normative standard by creating competing spaces.

Re: We Expect 300k Fewer Births Than Usual This Year in the US

#69

I wonder if there's a good way to model the cost of children over the last 100 years? My guess is fewer people are having children due to the financial costs rising considerably.

I would argue that it's also due to kids having "more" rights via the culture perpetuating entitled rights. So a mild spanking could be consider by many as straight up child abuse. People scoff if you let your kid just poke the world around without asking who, what, where, why. Kids needs to grow into their own and the current culture doesn't allow that.

Re: We Expect 300k Fewer Births Than Usual This Year in the US

#70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree that this type of misunderstanding is something every human experiences. Those assumptions will however impact my decisions - who I vote for, what charity I donate to, how I approach other people in life, etc My current situation is very safe and secure, so if I'm not aware that this is a privilege that is only enjoyed by a small subset of the population, my assumptions could lead me to making decisions that…

Maybe rather than expanding your assumptions one checked privilege at a time, just drop your assumptions altogether? You simply can't know the experiences of others; even direct communication only transfers a very loose approximation of experience, and that's if both sides are both communicating earnestly and are skilled communicators. So if you can't know the experience of just one person then you certainly can't gr…

I think it's naive to believe it's possible to drop assumptions all together. Without assumptions this thread wouldn't have happened

Taking the word "privilege" as an example, you have an assumption about what I mean when I use it and that it entails "moral judgement". These are not things I've expressed in any of my posts

> try to back leaders who want what's best for all.

I'm confused how you can know what's best for all without making assumptions. Could you elaborate?

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