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Silicon Valley stays on top as tech salaries climb across U.S.

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Re: Silicon Valley stays on top as tech salaries climb across U.S.

#241

Post by lonesword »

jjjeii3 wrote: post #167
hackerfromthefu wrote: post #161

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But that's ridiculous - many many years of continual study and professional development are required to be a developer - with lots of it happening of the job in the developer's education and personal time. About a week of on the job training is required to go from an entry level cleaner to an experienced cleaner.

Not only that, but in Germany many companies will not hire you, if you don't have a degree. So you must also spend a lot of time (3-5 years) and money to get a Bachelor/Master degree.

Money? What money? AFAIK degree programs in German public universities are nearly free.

Re: Silicon Valley stays on top as tech salaries climb across U.S.

#242

Post by dilyevsky »

I_AM_A_SMURF wrote: post #187
dilyevsky wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You do realize it’s the price of a lot? That house is a teardown

Yeah but the houses nearby are not that much better, look at this: https://www.redfin.com/CA/Palo-Alto/3561-Park-Blvd-94306/hom... $2.7M for a 100x50 lot and a 4 bedroom? That's mansion money pretty much anywhere. Hell you can even get a nice place in NY for that much.

I mean the fact that rank and file eng can’t afford PA house is not puzzling to me. More surprising is why Boulder or Vancouver have similar range of prices

Re: Silicon Valley stays on top as tech salaries climb across U.S.

#243

Post by lonesword »

caskstrength wrote: post #235
yrgulation wrote: post #170

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This will get downvotes but its worth it. Another reason for your Ukraine friends not wanting to move to Germany is because in one single comment you somehow made it clear that your cleaner is an African refugee and that Ukraine is poorer. Let that sink in. The question I would ask is why is there less demand in the EU for software engineers. The fact is software startups in europe are pretty small compared to the US…

> Another reason for your Ukraine friends not wanting to move to Germany is because in one single comment you somehow made it clear that your cleaner is an African refugee and that Ukraine is poorer. Let that sink in. I am a software engineer from Ukraine. Why do you assume I should get offended by these factual statements made by the OP?

I am neither Ukrainian nor African, and I am not happy with the "African refugee cleaner" comment either. Was specifying that the cleaner was "African" really necessary?

Re: Silicon Valley stays on top as tech salaries climb across U.S.

#244

Post by benhurmarcel »

closeparen wrote: post #146
jjjeii3 wrote: post #101

Meanwhile, EU salaries are stagnating and it's one of the worst places to be a software engineer. An average salary for a software developer in Germany was 46000 Euro per year in 2020, and don't forget, it's one of the richest countries in Europe. The average in EU is even lower... After paying taxes a single person with that salary will only have 2400 Euro per month (~ 2800 USD). The guy who cleans our house in Germ…

>The guy who cleans our house in Germany without any education (an African refugee) makes more money than that Another way of framing this is that Germany is successfully combating inequality, right? Professional-managerial class incomes and lifestyles aligning and sometimes inverting with working-class incomes is sort of the point.

Another way of framing this is that this is completely false, a house cleaner in Germany doesn't make anywhere close to 2400€/month after taxes. Unless he works all day and night including weekends without declaring any of it maybe, and even then that's a stretch.

Re: Silicon Valley stays on top as tech salaries climb across U.S.

#245

Post by lonesword »

jjjeii3 wrote: post #101

Meanwhile, EU salaries are stagnating and it's one of the worst places to be a software engineer. An average salary for a software developer in Germany was 46000 Euro per year in 2020, and don't forget, it's one of the richest countries in Europe. The average in EU is even lower... After paying taxes a single person with that salary will only have 2400 Euro per month (~ 2800 USD). The guy who cleans our house in Germ…

FAANG salaries in Germany are higher. I recently turned down a 75k offer from a German e-commerce company for a competing offer (FAANG, 88k + RSUs) that paid more. This was for an Applied Scientist role, but the software engineering payscale at both these companies are similar, according to friends who work there. This was not a senior position either - I was a masters student while I was interviewing for these roles

Re: Silicon Valley stays on top as tech salaries climb across U.S.

#246

Post by Mandatum »

BirdieNZ wrote: post #206

Meanwhile in New Zealand, I'm a good developer with a few years experience, doing well for my age locally...at USD$69,000. How can someone like me get a piece of US salaries without moving to the USA?

Contract. You want the same salary and security in NZ as a job in the US? Take control roles with daily rates above $1K.

Re: Silicon Valley stays on top as tech salaries climb across U.S.

#247

Post by yrgulation »

caskstrength wrote: post #235
yrgulation wrote: post #170

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This will get downvotes but its worth it. Another reason for your Ukraine friends not wanting to move to Germany is because in one single comment you somehow made it clear that your cleaner is an African refugee and that Ukraine is poorer. Let that sink in. The question I would ask is why is there less demand in the EU for software engineers. The fact is software startups in europe are pretty small compared to the US…

> Another reason for your Ukraine friends not wanting to move to Germany is because in one single comment you somehow made it clear that your cleaner is an African refugee and that Ukraine is poorer. Let that sink in. I am a software engineer from Ukraine. Why do you assume I should get offended by these factual statements made by the OP?

> I am a software engineer from Ukraine. Why do you assume I should get offended by these factual statements made by the OP?

I salute your confidence - I genuinely do. However, the statement is factually wrong.

You, as a software developer in Ukraine are unlikely to be "poor"[1] yet OP makes an attempt at enforcing that stereotype. By factoring in the cost of living, you are quite "rich".

Anecdotally, I spoke to someone from Romania a few years back when they were made an offer at Microsoft in London. They point blank refused an 80k GBP salary + bonus because, despite a lower income in Romania, their disposable income and quality of life was higher.

Some German immigrants to Romania, working at Ubisoft Bucharest, I was told, are quite impressed about how much more they earn compared to Germany.

After doing a bit of research I can see that salaries are indeed higher. Another anecdote may be that I wanted to hire someone remote for a UK contract and the daily rate was not much lower (it is lower if you factor in no VAT for intra EU invoicing, and lower agency fees and office costs / desk, but in practical terms its not). Some of the people working in IT in east Europe genuinely have a higher standard of living than in Germany. Compared to London the story is a bit different, but you rarely hear about a software engineer in their 30s, in east europe, living with "flatmates" because they cant afford their own property.

So really, I would reject stereotypes, particularly when they are not based on reality. Sure Ukraine overall has financial difficulties, but that stereotype simply doesn't apply to people in the context of our debate.

1. https://elitex.systems/blog/software-developers-salaries-us-...

Re: Silicon Valley stays on top as tech salaries climb across U.S.

#248

Post by caskstrength »

yrgulation wrote: post #247
caskstrength wrote: post #235

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Another reason for your Ukraine friends not wanting to move to Germany is because in one single comment you somehow made it clear that your cleaner is an African refugee and that Ukraine is poorer. Let that sink in. I am a software engineer from Ukraine. Why do you assume I should get offended by these factual statements made by the OP?

> I am a software engineer from Ukraine. Why do you assume I should get offended by these factual statements made by the OP? I salute your confidence - I genuinely do. However, the statement is factually wrong. You, as a software developer in Ukraine are unlikely to be "poor"[1] yet OP makes an attempt at enforcing that stereotype. By factoring in the cost of living, you are quite "rich". Anecdotally, I spoke to some…

> You, as a software developer in Ukraine are unlikely to be "poor"[1] yet OP makes an attempt at enforcing that stereotype. By factoring in the cost of living, you are quite "rich".

To me it looks like you and OP are in agreement because this is exactly what he said: "Even my friends from Ukraine (which is a much poorer country) don't want to move there, because in Ukraine they only pay 5% taxes and cost of living is much lower. So they can afford a much better life comparing to German developers."

Re: Silicon Valley stays on top as tech salaries climb across U.S.

#249

Post by caskstrength »

lonesword wrote: post #243
caskstrength wrote: post #235

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Another reason for your Ukraine friends not wanting to move to Germany is because in one single comment you somehow made it clear that your cleaner is an African refugee and that Ukraine is poorer. Let that sink in. I am a software engineer from Ukraine. Why do you assume I should get offended by these factual statements made by the OP?

I am neither Ukrainian nor African, and I am not happy with the "African refugee cleaner" comment either. Was specifying that the cleaner was "African" really necessary?

I guess their point was that first generation immigrant without higher education can make more money doing menial work than sw engineer. Don't know if it true in Germany or OP was just exaggerating.

Re: Silicon Valley stays on top as tech salaries climb across U.S.

#250

Post by lotsofpulp »

Mehdi2277 wrote: post #190
ska wrote: post #157

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Am I looking at it wrong? It all depends on what you want out of your work. The balance has shifted semi recently so that if you want to maximize your expected earnings, for most tech area engineers the answer has shifted from "pick the right startup" or maybe "go be a quant if you can" to "go work for FAANG". Things get a lot more complicated if you are not merely optimizing for income.

Quants still pay a silly amount that being a quant at a top firm (citadel, jane street, HRT, etc) still out pays FAANG most of the time. A candidate that interviews well and negotiates some can go for 300-400k new grad bachelors to those firms. That's not doable at FAANG. For FAANGs, over 300k without equity growth requires senior level or top band mid level. 400k needs senior level. While for citadel they're willing…

Quality of life and pay per hour is better at FAANG, from the people I’ve seen at both.
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