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The Air Force is having to reverse engineer parts of its own stealth bomber

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Re: The Air Force is having to reverse engineer parts of its own stealth bomber

#181

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While the revolving door is always a potential issue, and I'm sure it happens, I don't think that's a key problem for the DoD. When government officials leave office they're required to not do work, for a period of time, on things they controlled, and the penalties can be steep. That reduces incentives for the worst of abuses. Also: a US government employee who retires after 20+ years has a guaranteed pension; it's n…

Seems like if the US govt. can have a policy that disrupts the revolving door, they could also institute a policy that all tenders require the perpetual rights to technical data? Especially if this is a problem that even outsiders are aware of. So I wonder what's stopping such obvious and sensible policy from being enacted? Edit: I'll answer my own rhetorical question: because budget forecast time periods are aligned…

> Seems like if the US govt. can have a policy that disrupts the revolving door, they could also institute a policy that all tenders require the perpetual rights to technical data? Especially if this is a problem that even outsiders are aware of. So I wonder what's stopping such obvious and sensible policy from being enacted?

I don't think that policy (as written) would make sense for commercially-sold components (which were developed by the company without government funds and are being sold to the general public). Also, I think there are special cases where requiring the technical data isn't warranted. But I agree that policies could be greatly improved.

I think it would be appropriate to require technical data and technical data rights for all custom components by default (e.g., where the government funded part or a majority of its development). Waivers would be allowed, but only after being personally approved by a Secretary or Department CIO. That would provide some actual oversight; if program managers can approve making themselves look good, by lowering short-term costs (while increasing long-term costs after those PMs are gone), the rule will have no teeth. But government personnel want maximum flexibility, and while the current policies increase long-term costs, the policies also make it possible to get promoted when people are asked to do lots with relatively little money. So many government personnel are not very interested in that kind of policy.

A bigger problem is that contractors like it when their customer is stuck in an endless monopoly. Some contractors have been waging a long term effort to keep the gravy train going, and talk endlessly about the DoD "stealing our (contractor) data rights". The "stealing" they're talking about is allowing the DoD to receive the data that the DoD paid to have developed (!). Many contractors think they should have an exclusive right to the things they created using the government's money (and thus took little risk to create). For an example of this kind of absurd thinking, see: https://govcon.mofo.com/cybersecurity-and-data-privacy/break... Don't get me wrong, some contractors are actually quite reasonable, and the DoD cannot be successful without contractors. But contractors have a lot of incentive to gain exclusive rights over what they were paid to develop, and that's a huge incentives problem.

At least one past Secretary of Defense has tried to get more data rights through contracts, but it's very much an uphill battle.

There are some efforts to get more technical data rights in the future. I don't know what their status is, but my understanding is that they are minor nudges towards the government getting more rights to what the DoD pays for. These minor changes are considered by some contractors as the apocalypse, which should make it clear why big policy changes are hard. Here's some information on what was proposed, I don't know what has happened to it (I don't pay as much attention to this stuff as I used to): https://www.jdsupra.com/legalnews/dod-s-new-ip-rules-may-imp... I think these are at best small half-hearted measures to deal with a serious problem.

Re: The Air Force is having to reverse engineer parts of its own stealth bomber

#182
The B2 was designed to stealthily penetrate long distances into the USSR. It was a 1980s black program that eventually (at absurd cost) only shipped about 20 aircraft for a mission role that no longer existed. It's not surprising that the infrastructure and supply chain to maintain them into the latter parts of their operational life didn't materialize.

I am curious about what the current role of the B-2 is, as the US doesn't really have much need to bomb anywhere that it doesn't already have complete air superiority (and retaliatory strikes that wouldn't be preceded by pounding the local air force flat are best served by missiles, drones and other things that don't take a crew somewhere they might crash and end up confessing to war crimes on live TV). It was used to deliver a few bombs in Afghanistan and Iraq, but not in a role that couldn't have easily been filled by a B-52. Or a B-17. (I checked. There are currently more than 40 B-17s still flying in the world. That's twice as many as there are B-2s. Hmmmm...)

Re: The Air Force is having to reverse engineer parts of its own stealth bomber

#183
post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Reminds me of how NASA had to design completely new rocket engines for SLS because while they still had the plans for the Saturn-V rocket engines, back then plans weren't followed to such high accuracy as nowadays a 3D model would be followed. Each engine was custom tailored with small modifications here and there. The knowledge to custom tailor them was lost, so they went with designing new engines from scratch inst…

> Each engine was custom tailored with small modifications here and there This was true of lots of things outside NASA. This was one of the problems that killed the UK attempt to modernise the Nimrod maritime patrol aircraft [0]. They wanted to fit new wings to the old planes, but only discovered after the contract had been signed that the different airframes had not been built identically, but were different interpr…

I believe there is Murphy’s Law style saying for this

Interchangeable parts don’t.

Re: The Air Force is having to reverse engineer parts of its own stealth bomber

#184

I can't be certain, but I suspect the real problem was that the original contract was signed without requiring the technical data rights and/or delivery of the technical data. This is a common mistake made by the DoD, and can lead to extraordinarily high costs later. Just look at the notice: "The deliverables will include all technical data related to the heat exchanger disassembly, all technical data related to the…

Here in Canada, our air force takes out airworthy parts from planes, like emergency locator transmitter (ELT) batteries, before they're sent to museums. They have a stash of plane parts in a hangar somewhere for cases just like this.

Re: The Air Force is having to reverse engineer parts of its own stealth bomber

#186

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Boeing 787 series. Young in plane years. Best airliner in the sky. SpaceX makes working spacecraft.

787 should have been a straight forward simple twin engine jet. Yet, it had Billions of dollars in cost overruns and still has major manufacturing safety issues. https://www.fool.com/investing/2020/09/09/boeings-woes-mount... This country built Saturn 5 rocket, 50 years ago. Landed astronauts on the moon, with moon buggy and golf clubs. Now we can barely launch basic satellites. How is this progress?

There’s a reasonable chance you typed this on a pocket computer/communicator with an armful of MRNA vaccine in an electric car.

Re: The Air Force is having to reverse engineer parts of its own stealth bomber

#188

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Seems like if the US govt. can have a policy that disrupts the revolving door, they could also institute a policy that all tenders require the perpetual rights to technical data? Especially if this is a problem that even outsiders are aware of. So I wonder what's stopping such obvious and sensible policy from being enacted? Edit: I'll answer my own rhetorical question: because budget forecast time periods are aligned…

> Seems like if the US govt. can have a policy that disrupts the revolving door, they could also institute a policy that all tenders require the perpetual rights to technical data? Especially if this is a problem that even outsiders are aware of. So I wonder what's stopping such obvious and sensible policy from being enacted? I don't think that policy (as written) would make sense for commercially-sold components (wh…

Thank you for the insightful reply with actual domain knowledge. Here's hoping reform wins out in the longer term. I think there's renewed focus on military spending these days, and this seems like an easy win if the administration is determined and competent enough.

Re: The Air Force is having to reverse engineer parts of its own stealth bomber

#190

I can't be certain, but I suspect the real problem was that the original contract was signed without requiring the technical data rights and/or delivery of the technical data. This is a common mistake made by the DoD, and can lead to extraordinarily high costs later. Just look at the notice: "The deliverables will include all technical data related to the heat exchanger disassembly, all technical data related to the…

It's also possible the government did get all the technical data and then lost it. It has to be somebody's job to archive and catalog that stuff, and the cost of archiving comes out of somebody's budget. The pressure to just toss old dusty paper files to cut costs can be enormous. It might have happened because "Joe Smith was the archivist and he retired 10 years ago and we needed the space."

If the data was classified (very likely) it costs a lot more to store it and audit it, and the pressure to "just burn it" is that much greater.

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