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Killing TurboTax

kunle.app

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Re: Killing TurboTax

#341

Post by lallysingh »

bob1029 wrote: post #298

"Killing TurboTax" is essentially a meme until we meaningfully simplify the tax code. There is no software development team on earth who could catch up with the full capabilities of TurboTax without some sort of fundamental shift in the business. I really hate to say this as someone who makes a living out of it, but dealing with the current amount of complexity in the tax code with a piece of software that a non-expe…

I think if there was a basic extensible system, that could grow into a full product. Start with 1040EZ in year 1, then grow with your customers' needs as they age and need more.

TT has a large moat but behind it must be a ton of technical debt.

Would an open source solution work here?

Re: Killing TurboTax

#343

Post by sokoloff »

astura wrote: post #317
bob1029 wrote: post #312

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As noted in other comments here, an "auto tax" service only really works on the happy path. There are parts of the tax code which are highly subjective in more complex situations and require explicit elections on part of the filing party. These elections can have consequences far beyond the immediate tax filing transaction.

No, it can work with the complicated path too, they present you with what they already know about you and give you the opportunity to add more information that they don't yet know. They then calculate what you owe and tell you. At some point they are going to calculate what you owe based on what you provide them and what is reported to them, no matter what. Laws that authorize "auto tax" can also come with extra repo…

There is a much greater depth of detail that I provide to my tax preparer than I'd be willing to share with the IRS. I tell my tax preparer everything and have perfect confidence that my taxes will be prepared correctly and in accordance with the tax code and that nothing which is not required to be disclosed will be disclosed. Much of what I provide to my preparer is irrelevant to my tax obligations and anything that's irrelevant I would prefer not be disclosed.

I'm mostly a W-2 schmo without any particularly complex business arrangements and with a spouse who employs themself in a consulting capacity, puts the statutory maximum into tax-deferred accounts every year, and we have minor kids who are required to file returns due to kiddie tax laws.

I can imagine many people would rather pay a high three or low four-figure per year bill for tax prep and representation rather than give the IRS full access to their financial lives.

I do support (and strongly so) the idea that the IRS could provide simple, default tax prep based on the information they receive. Where I break is what escalation path should exist; I think there must remain an effective and private escalation path for more complex scenarios. (In many ways, that makes it even easier to implement. Make the simple case automated-by-default. Punt all the complex cases to the current system.)

Re: Killing TurboTax

#344

Post by [deleted] »

OwlsParlay wrote: post #326
trymas wrote: post #296

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's a racket. Government already knows how much you owe them. So how about US government, like most modern countries, send you a form which says: "we think you owe us xxx$ (because of this and that), if not - provide extra information"?

The US tax system is another one of those things about the US that looks utterly baffling to an outside observer from Europe. How on earth did it get into this state? How is this 'free'?

[deleted]

Re: Killing TurboTax

#345

Post by aidangrimshaw »

pbronez wrote: post #122
dastx wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In that same thread someone mentioned OpenFisca [0], which is used to codify tax law. Have you considering utilising it instead of re-inventing the wheel? [0] https://github.com/openfisca

These projects seems to come at tax policy from very different directions. US Taxes helps you fill out the specific form needed to file your taxes in the United States. OpenFisca helps you model a country's tax policy overall. It would certainly be interesting to connect the two, but I suspect that you'd do that after finishing US Taxes. Specifically, you could take a completed return from US Taxes and transform it i…

Hi I am one of the maintainers for ustaxes, here is a US tax model in the same vein as OpenFisca https://github.com/PSLmodels/Tax-Calculator

Re: Killing TurboTax

#346

Post by sfteus »

robert_foss wrote: post #330
astura wrote: post #317

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, it can work with the complicated path too, they present you with what they already know about you and give you the opportunity to add more information that they don't yet know. They then calculate what you owe and tell you. At some point they are going to calculate what you owe based on what you provide them and what is reported to them, no matter what. Laws that authorize "auto tax" can also come with extra repo…

This is how it is done in Sweden. And after having lived in 2 other countries it is clearly the way to go. The tax authority sends you a summary and you just approve it.

This always made the most sense to me. You get your return and review it; sign off if it's good, modify and return it if you have more claims, something is wrong / missing.

I'd wager the majority of people wouldn't have a reason to submit a revised return. And if the federal government generated your return, hopefully that would give them reason to automatically exclude you from audit, (ideally) reducing the burden of auditors.

Re: Killing TurboTax

#347

Post by drdeca »

ghaff wrote: post #325
azog_alone wrote: post #316

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The reason the tax code is so complicated is BECAUSE OF TurboTax. They lobby heavily to keep things complex and have brought down potential competitors through legal means. As such, "killing TurboTax" is the correct first step.

I know it's nice to have a corporate bogeyman to rail against but it's not that simple. For example, there have been all sorts of tax deductions over the years to incentivize things like home energy efficiency improvements, EVs, solar power, charitable contributions, etc. And the mortgage deduction was/is intended to promote home ownership. I could go on. Someone can disagree with some of the choices around tax rates…

There are some people who are weirdly anti-charity, saying that all of it should be done through taxes? I don't understand their point of view.

Re: Killing TurboTax

#348

Post by Cymen »

coldpie wrote: post #72
xrd wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> please don't use this software to file your taxes for the 2020 / 2021 tax season. I wonder if there is a PR that Intuit filed to add this to the readme. Seriously, I wonder how much money Intuit has spent to terrify people into using their software. Each year, I look around for alternatives so I can avoid giving them money, and each year I find some reason to grow fearful of an IRS audit and go with the company tha…

Unless you really screw up[1], or are intentionally trying to screw the IRS[2], you don't have to worry about an audit. The IRS's goal isn't to bring down their wrath upon you, their goal is to accurately collect the taxes they are due. If you pay too little, they'll ask you to pay the difference. If you pay too much, they'll refund it. Really: I once used the single-payer tax table instead of the filing-jointly tax…

This is my experience too. I was audited and they do send you a "shock" letter or at least they did in my case claiming I owed roughly $15,000 USD. After fixing my mistakes (and submitting an updated filing), they sent me a check for a bit more than $1,500 USD. Plus I learned about my mistakes so it was a win-win (as I learned with just enough time to not repeat the same mistake for the next year's taxes).

I had an A+ experience being audited after my initial shock. They even have a secure message system where you can communicate via a website with the IRS including uploading files instead of having to mail letters back and forth. Definitely some clunkiness but overall it was solid and worked.

Not sure I'd recommend the experience but I definitely found it nothing to fear. I also found I didn't need professional assistance with being audited (I did seek it out but due to the time of year being so close to the next year's tax due date, I couldn't find someone right then so I decided to try fixing it myself).

Re: Killing TurboTax

#349

Post by mikewarot »

I'm willing to pay TurboTax AND test (with my info) whatever else someone gives me to run locally on my Windows machine, offline, in a virtual machine. I'll do it every year, until the software is good enough to use without paying the TurboTax Tax.

I'm also willing to help debug it.

Re: Killing TurboTax

#350

Post by ghaff »

astura wrote: post #324
dave5104 wrote: post #319

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not to mention, I'm sure the "happy path" will accommodate a significant number of tax payers.

Currently, probably >85%, given that ~90% percent of households took the standard deduction in 2018.

The standard deduction is pretty high these days. I'll probably be back to not itemizing next year but my taxes are certainly not simple.
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