Live data from Hacker News

On the Instability of Bitcoin Without the Block Reward [pdf]

cs.princeton.edu

151–160 of 232 posts

Re: On the Instability of Bitcoin Without the Block Reward [pdf]

#151
post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wrong; there is a large backlog of transactions paying over 50 sat per byte [1], which is over $10 in fees for most transactions. [1] https://jochen-hoenicke.de/queue/#BTC,24h

Why is it $10? According to https://www.buybitcoinworldwide.com/fee-calculator/ Fee rate: 51 satoshis/vbyte SegWit transaction with 1 input, 2 outputs: ~172 vbytes In total: ~8772 satoshis == ~4.48 USD

Because the average transaction is over 400 bytes in size [1].

[1] https://bitcoinvisuals.com/chain-tx-siz

Re: On the Instability of Bitcoin Without the Block Reward [pdf]

#152
post #148

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> and I think it's probably racist I know that you think you're being performatively stupid, but in a system where the benefits are captured almost entirely by a few techbros, and the pollution from the coal power plants powering it is felt mostly by ethnic minority rural poor (1) ... yes? I suggest that the burden of poof is on the other side: attempt to make a coherent case why this technology is somehow egalitaria…

This is a smug take. Who do you think gets the benefit of the freshly printed fiat? In the central bank cantiollionaire system, there are three classes of citizens: 1) jamie dimons, warren buffets and the like who get access to practically 0 cost lending rates 2) the ~60% of citizens with assets (e.g. stonks, real estate) that get pumped along with the money printer 3) everyone else What do you think happens to "thir…

> The rules ARE the same for EVERYONE with BTC.

No, This is a very smug take from the "must be good because I got mine" BTC crowd. "Smug" practically defines them.

Anyway congrats on some smug "whatabout fiat"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whataboutism

Re: On the Instability of Bitcoin Without the Block Reward [pdf]

#153
post #90
post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's difficult for the Bitcoin community to find consensus on changes to the consensus rules. We couldn't change a constant from 1MB to 2MB. I think changing PoW entirely is extremely unlikely to happen. It's much easier for the people who believe in PoS to sell their Bitcoin and buy Ethereum instead.

Or any of the other PoS coins. If you want to invest (which is a word I hesitate to use in the context of any cryptocurrency) in a PoS coin there are more mature ones. It would be interesting if someone would research why this hasn't already happened? It's not like that alternative hasn't been available for a long time now.

Bitcoin's value is not based on its technical ability or its usefulness. No one understands or care about PoW vs PoS. Its only practical worth is its name recognition driving more people to buy it as an investment. Bitcoin beat Ethereum and Bitcoin Cash and Ripple and Monero and every other coin because it was first, and people know the name "Bitcoin", and they've never heard of any altcoin.

Re: On the Instability of Bitcoin Without the Block Reward [pdf]

#154
post #135

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I read this comment with interest, thanks for sharing. Makes good sense to me. If I may ask, do you think the distribution of bitcoin will be somewhat equitable as we approach 2140? And do you you think it will actually become a medium of exchange as originally hoped? Or will it remain a store of wealth only (as things currently seem to indicate)? And if it indeed remains only a store of wealth, will said wealth be d…

The wealth distribution of bitcoin is even worse than the wealth distribution of society as a whole. Further, I suspect that this would be the typical state for any finite/limited asset. IMO, things like bitcoin (and gold) as a primary wealth store are how you create stratified societies with entrenched elites and banking orgs with more money/power than nation states. Not that bitcoin could ever happen dominate, but…

I would expect it to get worse, over time, too. When the block reward was high, it meant that the (strictly financial) cost of actually operating the Bitcoin network was covered by Bitcoin dilution, which meant that everyone was paying it pro rata based on how much Bitcoin they actually own. As the block reward decreases, though, it increasingly has to be covered by transaction costs. That's going to progressively price people out of participation in the direct Bitcoin economy.

I can see using Bitcoin as a primary wealth store, similar to gold. I agree, it would have most the same social features, which seems problematic since none of that is really in line with Bitcoin's original political vision, but I'm not sure Bitcoin's original political vision is anything more than a piece of nostalgia cherished by people sitting on the periphery of the contemporary Bitcoin economy, anyway, so maybe that's no big deal.

The bigger problem I see with Bitcoin relative to something like gold is that it has some troubling practicalities. It's theoretically much easier to steal vast sums of Bitcoin in one go (because 1,000,000 BTC wouldn't be quite as subject to conservation of momentum as a tonne of gold bars would be), and it's definitely much easier for vast sums of Bitcoin to accidentally poof off into a crypotgraphic pocket universe where nobody can reach it anymore.

Re: On the Instability of Bitcoin Without the Block Reward [pdf]

#155
post #135

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The wealth distribution of bitcoin is even worse than the wealth distribution of society as a whole. Further, I suspect that this would be the typical state for any finite/limited asset. IMO, things like bitcoin (and gold) as a primary wealth store are how you create stratified societies with entrenched elites and banking orgs with more money/power than nation states. Not that bitcoin could ever happen dominate, but…

Can you give an example of an egalitarian currency or store of value?

One that has a fixed block subsidy. After any amount of time, whether years or decades or centuries, it will have been distributed evenly over all that time.

Rather than having 50% distributed in just the first 4 years, and only crumbs in later decades.

Gold is much more like the former.

Re: On the Instability of Bitcoin Without the Block Reward [pdf]

#156
post #104
post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don’t think individual transactions are meaningfully tied to an energy cost.

Why can’t you estimate the power consumption of the whole network and divide it by the number of transactions per second?

The choice of the word “meaningfully” was deliberate . Of course you can do that. But I don’t think it is meaningful. The energy use isn’t a result of the transaction.

Re: On the Instability of Bitcoin Without the Block Reward [pdf]

#157
post #120
post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's impossible to predict the future. If everyone holds bitcoin as a store of value then the value should drop as it's not being used for anything one would think. I believe the best outcome is that people start using bitcoin for every day purchases and the hope is that by 2140 the price is relatively stable. Most likely there will be many large holders as there are with real money. However, someone could maybe do a…

Or maybe there's a foreseen flaw in bitcoin. It's based on public-key cryptography which can be broken by quantum computers. Those don't exist yet (at least not in any form relevant to cryptography in practise), but I think they will by 2140.

If they are physically realizable at all in practice, then they very likely will be by 2140.

But I think there's a non-negligible chance that the theory of quantum mechanics will break down as we move to superpositions of 2^1024 classical states that must be faithfully represented with physical elements.

Re: On the Instability of Bitcoin Without the Block Reward [pdf]

#159

Why can't Bitcoin simply transition to proof of stake after mining dries up? Once there are few or no bitcoins left to mine then PoW is a lot of ceremony for very little security gain at that point (and perhaps opens up risks that this paper points out).

There is no such thing as “Proof of stake” to replace proof of work. Proof if work is a solution where you do not have to trust anyone, as the block is won by the person who finds the right math result, essentially a lottery. Proof if stake is either really proof of work that is less secure and obscured, or more often dimply giving the creators of the coin the power and your trust.... which reverses the entire point…

Maybe I'm misunderstanding, but Cardano's Proof of Stake seems to be working rather well while rewarding everyone who gets involved. Whale status or not. So I'm not understanding why you seem to disregard PoS as a solution when there are working solutions

Re: On the Instability of Bitcoin Without the Block Reward [pdf]

#160

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Very unlikely it will be turned off, the miners could still keep mining other coins while mining bitcoin blocks even if there is no BTC reward. See "merged mining" https://blog.bitmex.com/the-growth-of-bitcoin-merge-mining/ .

This is a good point that the authors don't touch on. There are many coins secured by sha256 and I'm sure many more will come along before BTC finishes it's release schedule. Switching to any one of them is likely to provide more revenue than just attacking the network for a little extra transaction fee money. This is one of those times it's really useful to make a distinction between bitcoin the currency and bitcoin…

All other sha256 coins combined only account for less than 2% of bitcoin's hashrate, so this doesn't really change the arguments.
Post reply on HN