Live data from Hacker News

What’s Wrong with “Multiplication Is Repeated Addition”? (2008)

denisegaskins.com

31–40 of 425 posts

Re: What’s Wrong with “Multiplication Is Repeated Addition”? (2008)

#31
post #13

My favourite way of thinking about these operations comes from category theory: * addition: the cardinality of the disjoint union of two sets * multiplication: the cardinality of the direct product of two sets * exponentiation: a^b is the cardinality of the set of maps from B to A where B is a set of cardinality b and A is a set of cardinality a

That is exactly how I explained multiplication to my 5 years old, right after getting him into programming by playing with profunctor optics

Re: What’s Wrong with “Multiplication Is Repeated Addition”? (2008)

#32
I'll tell you what's wrong: the mentality of the author of this text

Multiplication has started as repeated addition. That's where the idea came from.

> It is as if there were two types of addition: regular, random, “wild” addition and the specially-bred variety of addition to which we give the name multiplication.

Nobody. Literally nobody said that

Of course, you'll need to forget a bit the idea of repeated multiplication when you get into the rationals/reals/complex numbers, but even there it kinda makes sense

So no, I think this is the kind of teacher that makes the students even more confused and prone to hating math

Re: What’s Wrong with “Multiplication Is Repeated Addition”? (2008)

#33
post #29

These articles bring back memories of teachers telling me I was wrong, because I didn't use the quadratic formula, but completed the square instead. You can definitely see multiplication as repeated addition. It's even a useful thing to do, how else would you define multiplication? This is the whole idea that made mathematics great. You define more complicated operations in terms of familiar operations. Then, if you…

> You can definitely see multiplication as repeated addition. Only for rational numbers. Doesn't work for real and complex numbers. > It's even a useful thing to do, how else would you define multiplication? Axiomatically, not algorithmically.

If you define the reals axiomatically, you still need an existence proof. Which will involve addition and multiplication algorithms.

Re: What’s Wrong with “Multiplication Is Repeated Addition”? (2008)

#34

I don't understand. The author is mixing up physics (dimensional analysis) and maths, and trying to give the multiplicand a special role (I didn't even know there was a distinction between the two terms - to me they are both factors). This might be true in the physical world, but in the world of numbers, I think the distinction is irrelevant. Furthermore, being able to compute/define multiplication through repeated a…

Agreed. Multiplier and multiplicand are different words but the commutative property says their values can swap equivalently, so . . . what was the author's point again?

Re: What’s Wrong with “Multiplication Is Repeated Addition”? (2008)

#35

It may be wrong, but it is good enough to run all of our computation at the transistor level :) The fascinating thing is that now these transistors are helping make new math proofs beyond human comprehension.... how does that come out of addition?

AFAIK hardware multipliers are not quite as dumb and work more like this though:

5*11 = 5*(8+2+1) = 5*8 + 5*2 + 5*1 = (5...and then doing all this in parallel.

Instead of:

5*11 = 5+5+5+5+5+5+5+5+5+5+5

;)

Re: What’s Wrong with “Multiplication Is Repeated Addition”? (2008)

#36
post #13

My favourite way of thinking about these operations comes from category theory: * addition: the cardinality of the disjoint union of two sets * multiplication: the cardinality of the direct product of two sets * exponentiation: a^b is the cardinality of the set of maps from B to A where B is a set of cardinality b and A is a set of cardinality a

This seems a bit restricted. How do you go about extending it to real and complex numbers?

From what I know: This is still an open question.

Here's a list of some approaches.

https://mathoverflow.net/questions/310004/categorifications-...

Re: What’s Wrong with “Multiplication Is Repeated Addition”? (2008)

#37
post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> You can definitely see multiplication as repeated addition. Only for rational numbers. Doesn't work for real and complex numbers. > It's even a useful thing to do, how else would you define multiplication? Axiomatically, not algorithmically.

If you define the reals axiomatically, you still need an existence proof. Which will involve addition and multiplication algorithms.

Not algorithms. There will be infinite addition involved, and algorithms are finite.

Thinking of multiplication as repeated addition also won't explain anything about it. It's a separate operation. Deal with it. For similar reasons, you can't calculate x-th power of a number, when x is irrational, by decomposing it into exponentiation and roots.

This metaphor is just training wheels. At some point you should lose it.

Together with the notion that "multiplication is repeated addition" comes the notion that numbers are quantities. Only some of them are, and this isn't really what makes them numbers. Now what exactly gets repeated, when you don't have quantities?

Re: What’s Wrong with “Multiplication Is Repeated Addition”? (2008)

#38

These articles bring back memories of teachers telling me I was wrong, because I didn't use the quadratic formula, but completed the square instead. You can definitely see multiplication as repeated addition. It's even a useful thing to do, how else would you define multiplication? This is the whole idea that made mathematics great. You define more complicated operations in terms of familiar operations. Then, if you…

Yep, it is a clickbait

Re: What’s Wrong with “Multiplication Is Repeated Addition”? (2008)

#39
I think the author's argument becomes more clear when you consider multiplication in rings other than the integers, for example (square) matrices. The product of two matrices A*B does not correspond to repeated addition, and it is not commutative (A*B does not equal B*A in general).

I can see that having an engrained belief that multiplication is defined via addition becomes problematic at some point when learning about mathematics. However, this is true for a lot of basic properties that hold over the integers and not in other domains, so I'm not really convinced that it's actually wrong to teach kids about multiplication this way.

Re: What’s Wrong with “Multiplication Is Repeated Addition”? (2008)

#40
post #34

I don't understand. The author is mixing up physics (dimensional analysis) and maths, and trying to give the multiplicand a special role (I didn't even know there was a distinction between the two terms - to me they are both factors). This might be true in the physical world, but in the world of numbers, I think the distinction is irrelevant. Furthermore, being able to compute/define multiplication through repeated a…

Agreed. Multiplier and multiplicand are different words but the commutative property says their values can swap equivalently, so . . . what was the author's point again?

This was exactly my thought, I don't understand why those two word exist since it's commutative. Perhaps all this confusion is purely semantic.
Post reply on HN