It's somewhat interesting that in the "most damning" two graphs related to the listing of apartments nothing actually happened. The listing of old apartments were on a downward trend well before the policy was a enacted (and considering the noise on the limited data, I'm doubtful that there is a significant increase in slope) and the article even admits that there is not much effect that can be made for new developments.
Rent controls have split housing in Berlin into two distinct markets
571–580 of 724 posts
Re: Rent controls have split housing in Berlin into two distinct markets
#572Earlier quoted context omitted.
Yeah, you're right that there are a number of SFBA-specific factors that don't apply elsewhere. But people aren't really making the rent control argument about Peoria, IL. Any place that caps both rents and housing supply through policy amid increasing demand (like Berlin, the titular locale), is going to have a ton of politics around rent control, density caps, etc., because they are choosing to allocate scarce reso…
| people aren't really making the rent control argument about Peoria, IL. We are more than you think. Rising rents due to speculation or just plain landlord greed have become an issue country-wide. Even in places like Peoria. Especially in relation to stagnant wages. I advocate a combination of strong rent control, aggressively subsidized housing and consistent growth (especially vertically) where possible.
> Rising rents due to speculation or just plain landlord greed
Well, you'd need both, not just one: landlord greed has a cap, average rents can't be much more than the cost of buying, though there will always be some folks who don't qualify for a mortgage for whatever reason. The only reason landlords can be greedy is the leverage they have because supply is constrained -- otherwise, their greed would be thwarted by developers' greed!
Speculation and landlord greed only really affect prices in a supply-constrained environment. In markets where housing is a commodity, and can actually be produced, the cost of housing tends towards the cost of land acquisition & construction. Not always smoothly, of course...if demand jumps very suddenly, the construction market needs time to adjust, etc.
Re: Rent controls have split housing in Berlin into two distinct markets
#573Earlier quoted context omitted.
There is plenty of scientific denialism on the right. Along with anti nuclear, the belief that rent control is a remotely good idea is an example of scientific denialism on the left. There are some decent arguments to be made against nuclear but rent control has always always caused more harm than good everywhere it's been tried.
Rent control is not scientific denialism. Economics is not a science because nobody ever does controlled experiments. There are also disagreements about what end goal you're trying to optimize for. Economics is just a bunch of biased political arguments using different priors for assumptions. This is evident when you about different "schools" of economic thought. There are no irreconcilable "schools" of thought in th…
>Economics is not a science because nobody ever does controlled experiments.
Now that's provably wrong, and outs you for not knowing anything about the literature.
Re: Rent controls have split housing in Berlin into two distinct markets
#574An issue that many commenters here are missing is that the problem with rent control will manifest more sharply in the future. Sure, the impact today seems relatively equitable: a windfall for people that rent today coupled with a small drop in supply. But fast forward 10 or 20 years and the situation looks far worse: everyone who got a windfall today is still living in the same apartment, whereas anyone trying to en…
A counterexample is Vienna, which utilizes a well balanced system of rent-control and social housing to have incredibly low rents and still a stable supply of flats. One tweak they apply is that rent-control does not apply to new developments, so creating new flats is more lucrative than turning old buildings into luxury developments. The city also acts as a competitor, driving prices down by offering cheap flats. Th…
>A counterexample is Vienna, which utilizes a well balanced system of rent-control and social housing to have incredibly low rents
I beg your pardon? You can't possibly call rent prices in Vienna incredibly low and still keep a straight face. Maybe for the lucky Viennese that got grandfathered in some rent controlled flats, but last time I looked (pre-covid), rents there for new comers were insane compared to the next "biggest" cities like Graz or Linz, while Viennese working class wages were not much higher than those other two cities, if you exclude fancy lawyers, bankers, UN, IAEA and other diplomats.
Maybe rent prices have come down a bit recently due to covid disrupting AirBnBs but even telling Austrians that rents in Vienna are incredibly low is a guaranteed way of getting a few laughs out of them.
Re: Rent controls have split housing in Berlin into two distinct markets
#575Earlier quoted context omitted.
why is this mutually exclusive?
Rent control could technically be done by handing money to tennants to then hand to landlords, but in practice it's done by taking money away from landlords. Obviously, that's going to keep landlords from being able to give that money to construction companies. Another possible solution would be to take money away from tenants and landlords both to give directly to construction companies. That's socialized housing. H…
That’s how it was approached somewhat here in Australia. NRAS effectively did give money to the suppliers of housing so that rents could be lower to eligible people.
https://www.dss.gov.au/our-responsibilities/housing-support/...
Re: Rent controls have split housing in Berlin into two distinct markets
#576Earlier quoted context omitted.
Yes, but only until the current tenant leaves. Which gave that landlord all the incentives to make the current tenant leave, as evident by the half-assed repairs and other slumlord-like behaviors that the parent comment mentioned.
You get what you pay for. If the tenant here wanted to live with slum like pricing, tenant should get slum like conditions.
When I moved in, the pricing was fair, if not a bit high.
Over the years, cost of living increases for whatever reasons and now the rent I'm paying seems low.
Maybe the solution is to allow landlords to have larger increases that match changes in COL, but that is effectively the same as getting rid of rent control.
Re: Rent controls have split housing in Berlin into two distinct markets
#577Earlier quoted context omitted.
The thing is, what's the alternative? I live in Berlin, and my neighbours are in their 70's. Should they be forced to find a new flat way outside the city because the rent triples over the course of a few years so young tech workers relocating from London can have a place in the cool part of town? The rental market is different in Germany than it is in other countries: less people own their homes, and getting a housi…
> Should they be forced to find a new flat way outside the city because the rent triples over the course of a few years so young tech workers relocating from London can have a place in the cool part of town? yes why should they get to stay in berlin and have their housing subsidized?
Because civilization requires compassion, empathy, and meeting people's basic needs in a stable manner.
Re: Rent controls have split housing in Berlin into two distinct markets
#578At least they have tried something. In some other areas, like Sydney or Melbourne (Australia), everyone who matters (landlords + politicians) owns homes. So nobody is doing anything about it.
Economic benefits are probably the biggest reason for being stuck in those unlivable cities. However the downside might outweigh the upside: higher cost, long commute and lots of worries.
Re: Rent controls have split housing in Berlin into two distinct markets
#579Earlier quoted context omitted.
I agree, but I don't think the literal lord of a property should be able to force people to migrate by demanding higher tribute. There should be a rational humane process that isn't driven by simple greed.
You can flip this argument on its head so easily, though: "why should a person be able to keep out others who want the property more, in an arrangement that both the newcomers and the person who has poured their money into the property, solely out of their own selfishness in not wanting to move." When you frame the motivations of individuals with such simplistic motivations as natural market forces being entirely dri…
Real property is a limited resource. We accept that buying a piece of land often doesn't give you the legal right to do literally anything you want with it. You can't open a store on land zoned for residential use, for example.
From there it's just a matter of deciding what is and isn't allowed. I happen to be viscerally against the idea that a person's basic need -- a stable home -- should be overridden by another's desire to get more money out of an investment.
You seem to be of the opinion that people shouldn't have the right to a stable home if the owner of that home wants more money. I... guess that's ok? Not really big on compassion or empathy, but... it's an opinion, I suppose.
Your focus on "greed" completely lacks nuance. A landlord raising rent 30% just because demand is high (when the costs of being a landlord have not meaningfully increased; the concept of "market rate" is irrelevant here) is greed, absolutely, no question about it. A worker or union fighting for higher wages may or may not be greed, depending on the circumstances; usually it's not, because in general employers have much more power than employees (even when unions are involved), and worker pay has stagnated in recent decades, while executive pay has skyrocketed.
Re: Rent controls have split housing in Berlin into two distinct markets
#580Earlier quoted context omitted.
> Should they be forced to find a new flat way outside the city because the rent triples over the course of a few years so young tech workers relocating from London can have a place in the cool part of town? yes why should they get to stay in berlin and have their housing subsidized?
Because civilization requires compassion, empathy, and meeting people's basic needs in a stable manner.
i don't find it particularly compassionate or empathetic to subsidize someone's apartment just because they were living in it when a rent control bill was passed. yes, that person has a claim to some kind of housing, but why should they have a claim to the exact same kind of housing in perpetuity?