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Microdosing study shows the placebo effect of taking psychelics

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Re: Microdosing study shows the placebo effect of taking psychelics

#51
I won't discuss the study much itself (https://elifesciences.org/articles/62878 for the link to the actual paper btw), except to point out how sad this state of affairs is:

> A key limitation of the present study is the lack of verification of the nature, purity, and dosage of the psychedelic substance used for microdosing. Psilocybin-containing mushrooms were used by 23% of the sample, 14% used legal LSD analogues (such as 1P-LSD), whereas 62% sourced their substance from the black market, mostly LSD (61%).

Oh, and this was interesting:

> We note that according to our data the threshold LSD dose where participants guess better than random is 12 µg, see Figure 4, which is in line with the 13 µg threshold dose estimated by a recent dose controlled study

So in this group 12ug is roughly where the consciously notable effects begin (for this study population). For context, it's commonly said that "if you can feel it then it's not a microdose"; I consider ~5ug to be a microdose.

---

Anyway, I've got a lot of experience in this area because I microdosed ~4-5 ug LSD per day, every day, for about a year and a half. Also, this was from LSD liquid I made myself starting from raw crystal. So while I don't know the purity of the crystal itself, I at least knew how much of "my" crystal I was taking. (Getting a proper purity figure requires performing GC/MS - which you can only get done legally by sending a >=50 mg sample to EnergyControl in Spain, and I elected not to because I didn't want to have to sacrifice 50mg (= 500 doses) of crystal to send them)

For someone like me who is (relatively speaking) experienced with psychedelics, I can absolutely notice 5ug (it's subtle, of course, but definitely there), so note that the ~12ug detectability threshold they found in the study depends on how attuned the user is to the effects, etc. Really when most people talk about "noticing" something they don't actually "notice" it until they hit the point where they are incapable of not noticing it (for example, someone drinking for the first time will claim they feel the same 20 minutes after taking a shot, and when they finally admit that they're "drunk" they're properly drunk and not just "buzzed")

Anyway, enough rambling. Microdosing had an effect, but I took it for the same reasons (albeit smaller-scale) that I would take a full dose of LSD: increased energy, an increased "non-linearity" of thought patterns that is counterbalanced by the more traditionally stimulating effects of LSD (LSD is a Dopamine receptor D2 agonist), improved visual acuity and vibrancy of colors (well, full doses don't "improve" your visual acuity since a psychedelic dose cranks up the pattern recognition/perception transformation weights of your brain way past a functional state)

That is to say, that I wasn't microdosing to miraculously change my life or anything like that. Microdosing won't do that and the annoyingly-pro-microdosing-to-a-fault crowd really needs to get that.

While I'm rambling, I'll add that I personally have almost never taken LSD for a "spiritual transformation" or whatever you want to call it; I find psilocybin mushrooms to be far superior in that aspect. Basically, relatively speaking mushrooms cause much more "mindfuck" and for me I had the distinct sensation of feeling the shrooms taking over my brain (in a benevolent sense, or at least neutral), whereas LSD is a more visual experience and more energetic (likely due to the d2 receptor agonism I mentioned earlier as well as the general structure of LSD looking like a sort of psychedelic phenethylamine, phenthylamine itself being very amphetamine-like).

That is to say, both shrooms and LSD are very similar; the "magic" of the classical psychedelics - LSD, psilocybin, mescaline - is primarily attributable to their action at the 5-HT2A receptor (read: "serotonin subtype 2a receptor"), and that is by far the most distinctive and noticeable part of the psychedelic experience. But comparing between the psychedelics, with shrooms it takes much more "mindfuck" to get to a certain level of "visuals", and vice versa with LSD. Note I've talked to people who claim it's the other way around for them, but frankly these have always been people with limited experience and/or who don't think about psychedelics very deeply (in the analytical sense of really trying to grok them) so I personally still consider "take shrooms for the 3-6 hour mindfuck and LSD for the 8-12 hour aesthetic, energetic, kinesthetic experience" to be canon.

I've kind of accepted that I'm not going to have a coherent message with this post, but psychedelics are largely misunderstood, either by their opponents as causing "hallucinations" (no) and by the zealots as being a magical cure-all or microdosing specifically being a life-changing practice. For me, taking 3g of psilocybe cubensis mushrooms on a beach as my first real trip flipped me inside out and rewired my value structures. No longer was the (unconscious) desire for social approval vis-a-vis a prestigious/well-paying career at the top of my value structure; instead, spending a warm day on the beach with friends while wearing as little clothing as possible became what was most worthwhile and beautiful. Without trying to do so, I was analyzing my past, present and future.

You see, while I meant it when I said that psychedelics are not a cure-all, they are (or more accurately, can be) the cure for many things. One of the most well-accepted findings in psychology is that, in general, your personality is incredibly non-malleable, and tends to persist across time. Well, psychedelics are the only thing I know of that can reliably and radically change one's personality, specifically the big 5 dimension of "openness to experience".

Even an hour of sitting "outside" of your self can reveal things that sober you is incapable of noticing. And, just as once one human broke the 4 minute mile mark suddenly everybody started doing it, once you step outside of your "issue" du jour, however briefly - your neuroticism, your jealousy, your fear of emotional expression, your unconscious belief that you are incapable of love, etc - suddenly you've really seen that there's a different way of living. Not seen it in the intellectual sense but really consciously experienced it.

So when sobriety returns, barring a day or two of afterglow, you're soon largely back to your old self - and yet having experienced that alternate way, you have a chance to see yourself right now the way you'd look back on your life on your deathbed: suddenly the things you thought were the small things - a friend's smile, the contented look on your dog when you scratch them just right - were the big things all along. And the big things, the things we tell ourselves are the serious things, the adult things - we see them for the tiny, insignificant implementation details that they are.

So, psychedelics can wash away a type of sickness that most suffer from unknowingly. But they can only do so when you take enough that you cease to be capable of operating in that old mode anymore. Which means invariably there's always a period during the come-up when you realize you had no idea what you were signing up for.

But they are tools - very sharp ones - and like all very sharp tools can cause tremendous damage. One of my greatest regrets was selling two very strong tabs to someone who I had assumed knew what they were doing, and so didn't spend time giving the usual disclaimers / tutorial I'd give to clients. These were very strong tabs so it'd be something like 3-4 tabs of 100ug. I can't give as much detail as I want, (let's just say that I found much of this out from the news articles after the fact), but suffice to say that they took the tabs at night and ended up in a sort of "fugue state" (not sure what the right clinical term would be) where they stripped completely naked (a surprisingly common action of those on massive doses of psychedelics), knocked on the door of a random citizen asking for help, then started attacking them when they opened the door. As I later learned, they were ex-military and had diagnosed PTSD and god knows what else (one of the many myriad "benefits" of the war on drugs is never knowing the medical status of people who you're selling powerful drugs to unless they proactively tell you). To be clear, even on ~400ug LSD it is not normal to perform violent home invasions while in a blacked-out-like state, and there were a LOT of things that had to go wrong (PTSD + probably bad at handling psychs in general + taking them in the middle of the night + other factors I'm unaware of) for such a freak incident to occur. When you move the equivalent of 10,000 hits, statistically speaking you'll end up with one of those stories eventually.

So, don't drink the microdosing kool-aid too much - do it for fun and the experience if you want but don't pretend it's going to be a radical transformation - and understand that psychedelics can cause positive changes in a way that can [help] solve problems that are resistant to every traditional tool we have. But they can also be quite dangerous. I actually think the risk of a 'bad trip' is incredibly overblown and most people freak themselves out way too much about such things, but neither should one take a cavalier attitude.

[/unstructured ramble]

Re: Microdosing study shows the placebo effect of taking psychelics

#52

This is my first hand experience. My life was a codependent mess, I was depressed and having suicidal thoughts. I took a "heroic dose" of psilocybin, and during the ~4 hour trip I fell asleep and I was convinced I had died. I re-experienced my forgotten birth and felt the pain of my circumcision. I experienced a bunch of unexplainable things, fractal patterns and music, and explored a Interstellar(2014)-like tesserac…

My experience suggests you don’t need to go that far to get good results. I was at the lowest point in my life, very depressed and just generally lost. I was likely clinically depressed but didn’t have enough money to get a proper diagnosis. I everything short of prescription drugs to deal with it and nothing worked.

Then I took some LSD and had a mild trip with a friend and literally the next morning I felt happy and energetic. From that point on I have not been anywhere near the depression I had before. Now I just have the normal ups and down of life abs feel perfectly capable of dealing with the world.

Re: Microdosing study shows the placebo effect of taking psychelics

#53

This is my first hand experience. My life was a codependent mess, I was depressed and having suicidal thoughts. I took a "heroic dose" of psilocybin, and during the ~4 hour trip I fell asleep and I was convinced I had died. I re-experienced my forgotten birth and felt the pain of my circumcision. I experienced a bunch of unexplainable things, fractal patterns and music, and explored a Interstellar(2014)-like tesserac…

Thanks for sharing. I've never taken more than 3.5g of mushrooms, so not heroic, but even as little as 3g was enough for really profound life changes. 2g was just a fun experience and not much more. I've only done shrooms a handful of times but I think they're the best for actual transformative insight, whereas LSD (which I've done probably 30 times not counting microdosing) for me is much more just about the visual/aesthetic/kinesthetic/energetic experience.

I've done breakthrough doses of DMT many times however. Fun fact, go look at DMT and psilocybin molecules side-by-side, they are nearly identical (https://pubchem.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/compound/N_N-Dimethyltrypta... versus https://pubchem.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/compound/psilocybine). The key difference being that DMT can be inhaled whereas psilocybin can't, so you can get blasted into hyperspace and be back to normal in 20 minutes. I've gotten the more basic fractals and symbols written in the sand and faces in the clouds type effects on LSD/shrooms, but a proper dose of DMT brought me to this level you describe (and probably a little past):

> unexplainable things, fractal patterns and music, and explored a Interstellar(2014)-like tesseract where I could choose any place in time to return to

(minus the choose any place in time to return, although the general concept was similar since I was experiencing hyperdimensional objects and just as you can conceive of a cube as an infinite amount of 2d sheets of paper, so too can, say, a 5D space be viewed as an infinite amount of 4dimensional manifolds stuck together)

> I re-experienced my forgotten birth and felt the pain of my circumcision

Very interested in this experience. I won't go down the rabbithole too much but I'm in the (long) process of foreskin restoration, and definitely think that strapping a newborn to a table and (mostly) irreversibly damaging their most important organ is going to send out shockwaves of suffering that last not just your own lifetime but of course like all pain continues propagating forward through our children, etc. Anyway, all that aside, I'm wondering how much reading you'd done into circumcision and its effects before taking that trip. What I'm getting at is in psychology it's considered pretty well accepted that we can falsely re-experience memories, and so just curious what your "priors" were going into the experience. In other words, had you never thought about your circumcision (except superficially), and then had this forgotten birth / re-experienced trauma of circumcision experience, or do you think your subconscious was already "loaded up" with negative attitudes towards it, and this was just a sort of visceral expression/manifestation of that? (To be clear, even if the memory itself was a false memory, the trauma itself, whether it's just the more basic "pain sensitizes you to further pain" effect that's well studied or rather the more complicated self-propagating effects of the actual feeling of complete terror and helplessness that we must have felt as a baby and carried through spacetime, is clearly not false)

Re: Microdosing study shows the placebo effect of taking psychelics

#54
post #20

My drug of choice is placebo. Minimal side effects. Inexpensive. The more I use it, the better it works. Has effects on a variety of ailments, both physical and psychological. I'm surprised they don't sell branded placebo at the pharmacy - "Super Placebo - now with organic filler". I think it could be a hot seller.

They actually do here in Canada, I think they're mostly intended for children.

Re: Microdosing study shows the placebo effect of taking psychelics

#55
post #52

This is my first hand experience. My life was a codependent mess, I was depressed and having suicidal thoughts. I took a "heroic dose" of psilocybin, and during the ~4 hour trip I fell asleep and I was convinced I had died. I re-experienced my forgotten birth and felt the pain of my circumcision. I experienced a bunch of unexplainable things, fractal patterns and music, and explored a Interstellar(2014)-like tesserac…

My experience suggests you don’t need to go that far to get good results. I was at the lowest point in my life, very depressed and just generally lost. I was likely clinically depressed but didn’t have enough money to get a proper diagnosis. I everything short of prescription drugs to deal with it and nothing worked. Then I took some LSD and had a mild trip with a friend and literally the next morning I felt happy an…

Some people just need a little acute upregulation of neuroplasticity to break out of their funk. For others it's a much deeper and more entangled and multi-dimensional problem.

But just to agree with you, not everybody needs a heroic dose, and as the name implies, it's a dose where there is the possibility of stuff going very wrong - but one of the morals of psychedelics, (and indeed life itself because reality is "the strongest tab I never took"), is that you have to get to that place of completely surrendering and offering yourself up in order for you to be really transformed.

And the funny thing is so many of us go into our trips with the idea that we're taking it to improve our lives, and then when you're actually deep in the peak of the trip and you've got a whole universe inside of you suddenly you realize not just how unprepared you really were but more accurately, how fundamentally incapable of being prepared for the experience we really are)

Re: Microdosing study shows the placebo effect of taking psychelics

#56

I won't discuss the study much itself ( https://elifesciences.org/articles/62878 for the link to the actual paper btw), except to point out how sad this state of affairs is: > A key limitation of the present study is the lack of verification of the nature, purity, and dosage of the psychedelic substance used for microdosing. Psilocybin-containing mushrooms were used by 23% of the sample, 14% used legal LSD analogues…

Thank you, this was a great read, beautiful writing. (Well, the apologies for rambling only added length unnecessarily!) I've had both LSD and mushrooms, about half a dozen times each, decades ago, and your comment all made a lot of sense. That line about big things vs small things is so true. They didn't "transform" me, but were probably the best thing I've ever done/experienced.

Re: Microdosing study shows the placebo effect of taking psychelics

#57

> Meanwhile, those who consumed the drugs but thought they were taking a placebo experienced no significant increase in wellbeing. It's wild that there was a part of this study in which people were told that they weren't taking a psychadelic, but they were taking a psychadelic.

The participants guessed whether or not they had taken the psychedelic, which was used in some of the statistical analysis to show that if you guessed you hadn't taken the drug (but had) you would have experienced no significant increase in well-being.

Re: Microdosing study shows the placebo effect of taking psychelics

#58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Psychedelics are not all controlled substances, eg 1P-LSD is generally legal in North America.

It's a big risk. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Federal_Analogue_Act

North America != United States.

Re: Microdosing study shows the placebo effect of taking psychelics

#59
post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My experience suggests you don’t need to go that far to get good results. I was at the lowest point in my life, very depressed and just generally lost. I was likely clinically depressed but didn’t have enough money to get a proper diagnosis. I everything short of prescription drugs to deal with it and nothing worked. Then I took some LSD and had a mild trip with a friend and literally the next morning I felt happy an…

Some people just need a little acute upregulation of neuroplasticity to break out of their funk. For others it's a much deeper and more entangled and multi-dimensional problem. But just to agree with you, not everybody needs a heroic dose, and as the name implies, it's a dose where there is the possibility of stuff going very wrong - but one of the morals of psychedelics, (and indeed life itself because reality is "t…

> Some people just need a little acute upregulation of neuroplasticity to break out of their funk.

That's the best sentence I've read all year on HN.

Re: Microdosing study shows the placebo effect of taking psychelics

#60
post #52

This is my first hand experience. My life was a codependent mess, I was depressed and having suicidal thoughts. I took a "heroic dose" of psilocybin, and during the ~4 hour trip I fell asleep and I was convinced I had died. I re-experienced my forgotten birth and felt the pain of my circumcision. I experienced a bunch of unexplainable things, fractal patterns and music, and explored a Interstellar(2014)-like tesserac…

My experience suggests you don’t need to go that far to get good results. I was at the lowest point in my life, very depressed and just generally lost. I was likely clinically depressed but didn’t have enough money to get a proper diagnosis. I everything short of prescription drugs to deal with it and nothing worked. Then I took some LSD and had a mild trip with a friend and literally the next morning I felt happy an…

If we're sharing unverifiable anecdotes about LSD, then I have one...

A friends mother took LSD in the 80s and still gets nightmare flashbacks.

Stay safe kids.

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