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Beyond Meat signs global supply deals with McDonald’s, KFC and Pizza Hut

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Re: Beyond Meat signs global supply deals with McDonald’s, KFC and Pizza Hut

#671

Post by nearbuy »

briefcomment wrote: post #608
nearbuy wrote: post #554

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Since they lack thoughts, they couldn't care less.

Respectfully, you and most people have no clue what plants experience. There were those studies published in recent years that suggested plants "scream" when they are being eaten or destroyed, presumably to warn other plants.

We don't know what anything or anyone else experiences internally. But we know enough to make some good guesses.

Plants lack a brain, the organ responsible for thoughts. There's no more reason to think they have thoughts than a cell inside your body, or a computer. All three can process stimuli and communicate.

"Screaming" is editorializing for page views. They found some plants will produce an ultrasonic click every few minutes when dry or when cut. Because it's sound, and because we're looking at it with a human bias, some articles used the term "scream". But it's similar to when plants release chemical signals to communicate. Just because it's sound, it doesn't indicate they subjectively feel pain anymore than chemical signals would. (And chemical signals are used by cells in your body, and that also isn't evidence for consciousness.)

Re: Beyond Meat signs global supply deals with McDonald’s, KFC and Pizza Hut

#672

Post by hunter2_ »

gowld wrote: post #619
hammock wrote: post #383

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>when you add up every hot pocket, frozen pizza, slider, hot dog, or chicken nugget, it's hard to argue that most of meat actually being consumed can't be easily substituted. For something healthier and cheaper too! Read the labels more closely the next time you eat that hot pocket or frozen sausage pizza. A large number of these products already have "textured vegetable protein" (TVP) or other meat substitute in the…

If TVP is cheaper than meat as an ingeredient, then why does buying TVP product at the grocery cost ~4x more than buying meat?

I suspect that sneaking it into prepared foods is easier (detail doesn't matter quite as much) and high volume (people who don't care what they eat), while presenting it solo is more difficult (needs to look/feel/taste/smell just right) and lower volume (people who make an effort to avoid meat).

Re: Beyond Meat signs global supply deals with McDonald’s, KFC and Pizza Hut

#673

Post by Talanes »

abalone wrote: post #604
DamnYuppie wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I truly don't understand the methane issue. Historically worldwide the # of ungulates is probably well below historical averages. It looks like today we have around 98 million head of cattle in the US. Historically we had bison in excess of conservatively 60 million. This doesn't even begin to count all the animals in Africa. Overall wide life is declining. https://www.statista.com/statistics/194297/total-number-of-c…

This is so misinformed. Much cattle production is in South America yet you cite only US figures which is less than 10% of headcount.[1] Even the US bison figures you cite predate the massive rise in industrial CO2 emissions, greatly reducing our budget. And you claim “wild life” is declining without sources — commercial cattle still number > 1B worldwide. > One item worth noting is that the decline in U.S. inventory…

>Even the US bison figures you cite predate the massive rise in industrial CO2 emissions, greatly reducing our budget

"Cows are a major driver of climate change" and "Cows are the part of the CO2 budget that is most expendable" are related, but not quite equivalent arguments.

Re: Beyond Meat signs global supply deals with McDonald’s, KFC and Pizza Hut

#674

Post by subungual »

jtdev wrote: post #628
soyftware wrote: post #595

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Humans have moral agency, and most importantly, do not need meat to survive in 2020. Which is different than wild coyotes. Veganism according to the vegan society: https://www.vegansociety.com/go-vegan/definition-veganism > "Veganism is a philosophy and way of living which seeks to exclude—as far as is possible and practicable—all forms of exploitation of, and cruelty to, animals for food, clothing or any other purpo…

> “we still need to farm grains for feed, more than we would have to otherwise. Reducing animal agriculture will have a positive impact on wildlife, reducing deforestation, etc.” Uh, where do you think Vegan friendly foods are grown? Do you realize that the earth must be cultivated to grow the vast majority of these foods? Do you think farmers of these foods take kindly to crop damage from wild animals? Beef cattle d…

The overwhelming majority (95-99%, from what I can find) of cattle in the United States are fed corn or soy. 98% of soy and 48.7% of all corn grown in the United States are used to feed livestock. Corn is the top crop in the US and soy is #6. Replacing these monocultures with a variety of vegetables would do a great deal to improve farming sustainability in the country.

https://www.canr.msu.edu/news/where_do_all_these_soybeans_go....

https://iopscience.iop.org/article/10.1088/1748-9326/aad401#....

https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/time-to-rethink-c....

https://agamerica.com/power-of-10-top-10-produce-crops-in-th...

Re: Beyond Meat signs global supply deals with McDonald’s, KFC and Pizza Hut

#675

Post by shawnz »

briefcomment wrote: post #667
shawnz wrote: post #664

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think it's clear why the root of a plant like a carrot should have any special significance except to us. What about onions, turnips, potatoes, etc? That said, there are some who do think the roots are significant: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jain_vegetarianism

I meant a carrot is something that would probably be more individualized than say a strawberry. So I get your point about eating from plants that grow back, but I guess a carrot wouldn’t fall under that categorization. Also, what about animals that regrow limbs? Would you eat the arms of a starfish every so often?

I think it's possible combined with ethical farming practices I could be convinced it's not so bad to eat starfish arms (although they don't sound very appetizing).

To be clear I do already eat meat today. I am just not convinced about its necessity and am interested in ways to avoid doing it.

Re: Beyond Meat signs global supply deals with McDonald’s, KFC and Pizza Hut

#676

Post by spicyramen »

drewg123 wrote: post #2

This is the best news I've heard all week. The more widely vegan "meat" is available, the more likely it is to be adopted by average people and not just dedicated vegans. Reducing the demand for real beef is probably one of the best things we can do in the short term for the environment, due to the amount of land required for cattle farming, and due to the surprising amount of methane emitted by cattle. (see the docu…

That doesn't taste as good as meat.

Re: Beyond Meat signs global supply deals with McDonald’s, KFC and Pizza Hut

#677

Post by cwal37 »

lovemenot wrote: post #583
lurgburg wrote: post #567

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A somewhat surprising corollary: if you have methane and you can burn it, it's better to do that than vent it directly. (Of course, better still to leave it in the ground, if that's where your methane is coming from...)

@nightski Yes, natural gas is about half as bad as burning oil and one third as bad as coal in terms of energy output per tonne of CO2 emitted. Although methane is usually the largest component, natural gas is typically a mixture of methane, propane and butane. So not quite the came as cow burps.

Not quite. For a power plant the rate is ~0.059 tons CO2 per MMBtu of natural gas, coal is ~0.105 tons per MMBtu (different for bit, sub, etc.), and oil is around ~0.081 (although, like coal, it varies).

Now, in a power plant context, modern gas plants are going to be more efficient and have better heat rates than their coal and oil equivalents, so you do generally need less total MMBtu input to get an equivalent amount of generation out. But if you’re burning the same amount in terms of energy content, the difference when it comes to only CO2 is not as large as you’re saying.

Re: Beyond Meat signs global supply deals with McDonald’s, KFC and Pizza Hut

#678

Post by briefcomment »

nearbuy wrote: post #671
briefcomment wrote: post #608

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Respectfully, you and most people have no clue what plants experience. There were those studies published in recent years that suggested plants "scream" when they are being eaten or destroyed, presumably to warn other plants.

We don't know what anything or anyone else experiences internally. But we know enough to make some good guesses. Plants lack a brain, the organ responsible for thoughts. There's no more reason to think they have thoughts than a cell inside your body, or a computer. All three can process stimuli and communicate. "Screaming" is editorializing for page views. They found some plants will produce an ultrasonic click every…

Would anesthetization before killing animals address this issue?

Re: Beyond Meat signs global supply deals with McDonald’s, KFC and Pizza Hut

#679

Post by subungual »

wdb wrote: post #635

Personally, I don't understand why they need to call it meat or vegetarian butcher while it isn't. I understand it's accepted by the EU courts but it feels odd. I typically order my vegan meals/recipes from Riverford ( https://www.riverford.co.uk ) and Abel and Cole which are nice but I do think I need to swap it out occasionally with some vegetarian meals. I do think they could have some more mashes in their recipe…

I think it's just easier to call it meat because it makes clear what dietary/textural/taste role it is supposed to fill. The spot is already cut out in people's schemata. Maybe language will shift and a new word will emerge to better characterize substitutes in the future, or maybe the definition will ultimately be subsumed by replacements. Honestly, it's not ever really bothered me, so maybe it's just a question of individual language aesthetic preferences.

I'll give you that using "butcher" is a little weird, though for most places I've seen do that it's a marketing gimmick.

Re: Beyond Meat signs global supply deals with McDonald’s, KFC and Pizza Hut

#680

Post by subungual »

throwaway5752 wrote: post #387
dilap wrote: post #362

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Personally, I very much doubt it. Meat is an ancient food. We've evolved as hunter-gatheres, with most of our calories coming from hunting. It would be very surprising if we were not well-adapted to eating a lot of meat. Modern hunter-gatherer tribes which eat a lot of meat, like the Hadza, have excellent health. Something like Beyond Meat is novel; it may well be OK, but I'd certainly exercise a lot of caution befor…

"Hunter- Gatherers " There is a great deal of misinformation about hunter-gather diets: https://globalhealth.duke.edu/news/what-can-hunter-gatherers... or https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/why-paleo-diet-ha... (I didn't invest much effort in finding illustrative links, there are many more, and academic research). Walking around constantly and digging up/harvesting edible plants, insects, fungi, possibly carr…

The hunter-gatherer argument also fails an important sniff test for me. Evolutionarily-driven arguments fail to take into account that what may have been sufficient outcomes to drive selection (e.g. survival to/through reproductive prime) do not meet our current values and standards of acceptability. Heart disease, diabetes, cancer, etc. tend to strike after people are done reproducing but long before what we consider reasonable life expectancy.
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