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Rent controls have split housing in Berlin into two distinct markets

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Re: Rent controls have split housing in Berlin into two distinct markets

#461

Post by lotsofpulp »

dionidium wrote: post #372
Xylakant wrote: post #312

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A counterexample is Vienna, which utilizes a well balanced system of rent-control and social housing to have incredibly low rents and still a stable supply of flats. One tweak they apply is that rent-control does not apply to new developments, so creating new flats is more lucrative than turning old buildings into luxury developments. The city also acts as a competitor, driving prices down by offering cheap flats. Th…

> One tweak they apply is that rent-control does not apply to new developments, so creating new flats is more lucrative than turning old buildings into luxury developments. Typical YIMBY broken record here, but in the U.S. it's more or less illegal to build new housing on almost every inch of land (especially in the most expensive cities). We don't need to develop baroque incentives for developers to create housing;…

It is most certainly not illegal to build new housing in the US.

https://www.census.gov/construction/nrc/pdf/newresconst.pdf

Re: Rent controls have split housing in Berlin into two distinct markets

#462

Post by CydeWeys »

w-m wrote: post #365
briffle wrote: post #160

In Oregon, they passed a statewide rent control. They pointed out repeatedly at how rent had gone up 30% over five years. The solution, is that now landlords can only increase rent 7% (plus inflation) per year. This year, its something like 9%. Apparently, someone forgot to figure out what >7% per year for 5 years is..... Its 40%, before the inflation numbers are added in.

There were limits like this already in place in Germany. Rent could only be increased every 12 months, and for Berlin, I believe, no more than 15% total in 3 years. It didn’t help much. Landlords could circumvent it in many ways: by offering contracts to new renters that automatically increase each year, which then isn’t bound to the limits. For existing tenants they could do bullshit renovations that trigger a moder…

There are market dynamics at play in both places. If the rents are increasing by double digit percentages within a couple years then that means that demand is rapidly outstripping supply. There's really only two options here: Reduce demand by banning people from moving to the city, or increase supply by building a lot more housing. #1 is illegal in the US and likely illegal in Germany too, so #2 it has to be.

Re: Rent controls have split housing in Berlin into two distinct markets

#463

Post by skohan »

el_nahual wrote: post #152

An issue that many commenters here are missing is that the problem with rent control will manifest more sharply in the future. Sure, the impact today seems relatively equitable: a windfall for people that rent today coupled with a small drop in supply. But fast forward 10 or 20 years and the situation looks far worse: everyone who got a windfall today is still living in the same apartment, whereas anyone trying to en…

The thing is, what's the alternative?

I live in Berlin, and my neighbours are in their 70's. Should they be forced to find a new flat way outside the city because the rent triples over the course of a few years so young tech workers relocating from London can have a place in the cool part of town?

The rental market is different in Germany than it is in other countries: less people own their homes, and getting a housing contract feels a lot more like a permanent thing than when I was living in the US. You pay 3 months rent up front as the security deposit, and most flats don't come with a fitted kitchen so you have to take care of it yourself.

Re: Rent controls have split housing in Berlin into two distinct markets

#464

Post by tamrix »

el_nahual wrote: post #152

An issue that many commenters here are missing is that the problem with rent control will manifest more sharply in the future. Sure, the impact today seems relatively equitable: a windfall for people that rent today coupled with a small drop in supply. But fast forward 10 or 20 years and the situation looks far worse: everyone who got a windfall today is still living in the same apartment, whereas anyone trying to en…

Exactly, this is to increase rent prices by shorting supply, not to protect the people.

Re: Rent controls have split housing in Berlin into two distinct markets

#465

Post by lutoma »

JPKab wrote: post #322
el_nahual wrote: post #152

An issue that many commenters here are missing is that the problem with rent control will manifest more sharply in the future. Sure, the impact today seems relatively equitable: a windfall for people that rent today coupled with a small drop in supply. But fast forward 10 or 20 years and the situation looks far worse: everyone who got a windfall today is still living in the same apartment, whereas anyone trying to en…

There is plenty of scientific denialism on the right. Along with anti nuclear, the belief that rent control is a remotely good idea is an example of scientific denialism on the left. There are some decent arguments to be made against nuclear but rent control has always always caused more harm than good everywhere it's been tried.

Proponents of nuclear power labelling everyone who does not unequivocally support it "science deniers" is such infuriating populism.

Nuclear power obviously has immense benefits, but there are also undeniable risks associated with it. It's entirely possible to be in favor or against it while considering the exact same scientific facts depending on which of these you consider more important, no "scientific denialism" required.

I also don't see how nuclear power is supposed to be related to the economic left/right spectrum.

Re: Rent controls have split housing in Berlin into two distinct markets

#466

Post by neaanopri »

JPKab wrote: post #322
el_nahual wrote: post #152

An issue that many commenters here are missing is that the problem with rent control will manifest more sharply in the future. Sure, the impact today seems relatively equitable: a windfall for people that rent today coupled with a small drop in supply. But fast forward 10 or 20 years and the situation looks far worse: everyone who got a windfall today is still living in the same apartment, whereas anyone trying to en…

There is plenty of scientific denialism on the right. Along with anti nuclear, the belief that rent control is a remotely good idea is an example of scientific denialism on the left. There are some decent arguments to be made against nuclear but rent control has always always caused more harm than good everywhere it's been tried.

100%

Rent control in crises makes sense. Rent control was applied in WW2 in NYC for example.

Just like rationing is a good response in a crisis, but not in "peacetime".

Re: Rent controls have split housing in Berlin into two distinct markets

#467

Post by ClumsyPilot »

el_nahual wrote: post #152

An issue that many commenters here are missing is that the problem with rent control will manifest more sharply in the future. Sure, the impact today seems relatively equitable: a windfall for people that rent today coupled with a small drop in supply. But fast forward 10 or 20 years and the situation looks far worse: everyone who got a windfall today is still living in the same apartment, whereas anyone trying to en…

I feel the discussion about rent misses the forest for the trees: most houses are sold, not let out by developers. Price of house is affected by the interest rate much more than it is affected by the rent: i.e. if interest rates fall by half, and rents fall by half, house prices go up.

If you could buy a house with zero percent interest rate, then any rent, no matter how tiny, is building you equity.

Then you have to conisder thay mant houses are bough as 'investment' and many owners literally dont bother renting them out, they just wait for price of the house to go up. This is a serious problem in london

Re: Rent controls have split housing in Berlin into two distinct markets

#468

Post by throwaway6734 »

skohan wrote: post #463
el_nahual wrote: post #152

An issue that many commenters here are missing is that the problem with rent control will manifest more sharply in the future. Sure, the impact today seems relatively equitable: a windfall for people that rent today coupled with a small drop in supply. But fast forward 10 or 20 years and the situation looks far worse: everyone who got a windfall today is still living in the same apartment, whereas anyone trying to en…

The thing is, what's the alternative? I live in Berlin, and my neighbours are in their 70's. Should they be forced to find a new flat way outside the city because the rent triples over the course of a few years so young tech workers relocating from London can have a place in the cool part of town? The rental market is different in Germany than it is in other countries: less people own their homes, and getting a housi…

build more housing

Re: Rent controls have split housing in Berlin into two distinct markets

#469

Post by sudosysgen »

chipsa wrote: post #442
sudosysgen wrote: post #296

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You are assuming that the only reason anyone would build is to rent things out. This ridiculous. A great many constructions are for people that own their houses. That alone solves the conundrum.

It doesn't in SF, because the problem there is that they can't reasonably build anything. Whether it's a house or an apartment building, it's not really getting built. And building a new house to replace an existing house (which is happening), doesn't increase housing stock. It just makes it newer.

Well sure, fixing that is prerequisite to fixing the issue. It's not sufficient, though.

Re: Rent controls have split housing in Berlin into two distinct markets

#470

Post by skohan »

throwaway6734 wrote: post #468
skohan wrote: post #463

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The thing is, what's the alternative? I live in Berlin, and my neighbours are in their 70's. Should they be forced to find a new flat way outside the city because the rent triples over the course of a few years so young tech workers relocating from London can have a place in the cool part of town? The rental market is different in Germany than it is in other countries: less people own their homes, and getting a housi…

build more housing

why is this mutually exclusive?
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