Lack of Entrepreneurial Culture Seen as Europe’s Biggest Obstacle • Hacker News Board

Re: Lack of Entrepreneurial Culture Seen as Europe’s Biggest Obstacle

#91

Post by anamax » Tue, Jun 07, 2011, 9:10 PM UTC

jbooth wrote: post #76

anamax wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Those problems aside, we could do a lot worse than modeling europe, way less gas usage, higher health insurance coverage, 2 months of vacation a year. Sounds a lot more stable to me. And roughly half the gdp/person of the US. The US govt already collects about as much (per person) in taxes as European govts. (It collects significantly more than Canada and, iirc, slightly less than France.) Yet, no one would serious…

We should copy some stuff from their tax code, too. As you said, they're not collecting significantly more than us, they just have a way simpler rate. Netherlands was explained to me as "25% up to 100k, 50% on income over that". That's fair, simple and actually a lower rate for the vast majority of people. Our system is a bloated mess in comparison. Not saying that automatically everything done by Europe is better th…

> We should copy some stuff from their tax code, too. As you said, they're not collecting significantly more than us, they just have a way simpler rate.

Actually, I didn't say anything about how taxes are collected.

However, I will point out that even when the US had significantly higher rates, the feds never managed to collect more than 22% of GDP in taxes and even those two years were "unstable", in that folks adjusted their behavior.

The sustainable maximum appears to be around 21%, and even that isn't possible during a recession.

> Netherlands was explained to me as "25% up to 100k, 50% on income over that". That's fair, simple and actually a lower rate for the vast majority of people.

No, it's not a lower rate for "the vast majority". It's actually a significantly higher rate for the vast majority.

Most employed folks in the US don't pay income taxes. They pay SS, which has very progressive payback, so it's actually a good "investment" for folks who don't pay income taxes. They also pay medicare, but again, their benefits outweigh their costs.

So, 25% (up to 100k) would be a huge increase for most Americans. 50% is higher than the current highest marginal rate, so anyone paying it would also see an increase.

I don't remember where the 30% bracket kicks in, but if it's less than 100k, maybe there are some folks who'd pay less under your scheme, but they're not anywhere near a majority.

> Let's steal good ideas where we can.

I agree, but until we "steal" the good ideas related to efficient govt spending, better taxation is a disaster.

Re: Lack of Entrepreneurial Culture Seen as Europe’s Biggest Obstacle

#92

Post by FrojoS » Tue, Jun 07, 2011, 9:14 PM UTC

keiferski wrote: post #6

. Making money, he said, was not seen as a good thing to do. “The culture is changing, but it will take time.” There's your marketing problem. If being an entrepreneur was only about making money, I wouldn't want my culture to encourage it either. They should focus less on materialism and more on making a difference and creating jobs.

Guess what "venture capital" is called in Germany. "Risiko Kapital" which literally means "risk capital". And yes, I agree, the typical picture of an entrepreneur here is that of a greedy - or dumb - person.

Re: Lack of Entrepreneurial Culture Seen as Europe’s Biggest Obstacle

#93

Post by jbooth » Wed, Jun 08, 2011, 4:07 AM UTC

anamax wrote: post #91

jbooth wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We should copy some stuff from their tax code, too. As you said, they're not collecting significantly more than us, they just have a way simpler rate. Netherlands was explained to me as "25% up to 100k, 50% on income over that". That's fair, simple and actually a lower rate for the vast majority of people. Our system is a bloated mess in comparison. Not saying that automatically everything done by Europe is better th…

> We should copy some stuff from their tax code, too. As you said, they're not collecting significantly more than us, they just have a way simpler rate. Actually, I didn't say anything about how taxes are collected. However, I will point out that even when the US had significantly higher rates, the feds never managed to collect more than 22% of GDP in taxes and even those two years were "unstable", in that folks adju…

Yeah, you played the old familiar canard of "I'm going to advocate for the government to do things less efficiently and then bitch about how inefficient they are". Par for the course for republicans.

Personally, I'd be in favor of a simplified tax rate with a flat/progressive system that doesn't have an encyclopedia built into it. You might be in favor of a slightly different version of that non-encyclopedia but we're basically on the same side. Rush Limbaugh is trying to divide us -- who's side is he on?

EDIT: btw, most people with under 100k of income in the US pay significantly more than 25%, closer to 40%. Do you think they should pay more? Or less?

Re: Lack of Entrepreneurial Culture Seen as Europe’s Biggest Obstacle

#94

Post by anamax » Wed, Jun 08, 2011, 4:41 AM UTC

jbooth wrote: post #93

anamax wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> We should copy some stuff from their tax code, too. As you said, they're not collecting significantly more than us, they just have a way simpler rate. Actually, I didn't say anything about how taxes are collected. However, I will point out that even when the US had significantly higher rates, the feds never managed to collect more than 22% of GDP in taxes and even those two years were "unstable", in that folks adju…

Yeah, you played the old familiar canard of "I'm going to advocate for the government to do things less efficiently and then bitch about how inefficient they are". Par for the course for republicans. Personally, I'd be in favor of a simplified tax rate with a flat/progressive system that doesn't have an encyclopedia built into it. You might be in favor of a slightly different version of that non-encyclopedia but we'r…

> Yeah, you played the old familiar canard of "I'm going to advocate for the government to do things less efficiently and then bitch about how inefficient they are".

No, I didn't. I wrote that the US govt should be more efficient.

> btw, most people with under 100k of income in the US pay significantly more than 25%, closer to 40%.

That's not true. See http://www.taxbrackets2011.com/ . Singles with AGIs between $83-173k pay 28% marginal. The 25% bracket (for singles) starts at $34k.

No, you don't get to count SS. As I explained, SS is a forced savings plan with a rather good return for folks who don't max out, which happens over $100k. (They're subsidized by folks who do max out.) You can argue medicare, but it's <4%.

Re: Lack of Entrepreneurial Culture Seen as Europe’s Biggest Obstacle

#95

Post by mephju » Wed, Jun 08, 2011, 7:26 AM UTC

FrojoS wrote: post #90

jquery wrote: post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think there is a large truth here, in that Americans have the entrepreneurial spirit in their blood and in their culture. Most of our ancestors were highly dissatisfied with the status quo, to the point where they were willing to travel thousands of miles to a faraway land, back when that was a much bigger deal than it is today. But I think this is another discussion entirely.

Really? I think its spot on. This trend continues to today. As PG has pointed out in his advocacy for a founder visa [1], about half of vc-backed company founders are immigrants [2]. [1] http://www.paulgraham.com/foundervisa.html [2] http://venturebeat.com/2006/11/15/note-to-washington-about-h...

Even the descendants of ADD immigrants are more likely to have ADD themselves. There is a 30% chance for children to get ADD when 1 parent has got it and 50% chance when both parents have it.

Therefore percentage of people having ADD should be much higher in America than anywhere else.

Re: Lack of Entrepreneurial Culture Seen as Europe’s Biggest Obstacle

#96

Post by narag » Wed, Jun 08, 2011, 1:27 PM UTC

jasiek wrote: post #85

narag wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not the Welfare State but bureaucracy and tax greed. Today I've read a blog post by Jesús Encinar, CEO of idealista.com, the go-to site for renting and buying real state in Spain. The article is in Spanish, short summary below): http://www.jesusencinar.com/2011/06/10-ideas-concretas-para-... "Ten ideas to promote startups in Spain" - Limited liability - The State shouldn't keep VAT returns for a year. - Not over…

I agree with your tax greed argument. In Poland, the state will take any and every opportunity to increase tax revenues, while doing nothing to cut expenses. I'm not sure how it works elsewhere in the EU, but here you have to pay VAT on unpaid invoices as well, effectively making you liable for your customers' inability to pay. This, coupled with the fact that courts are inefficient and generally extremely slow in ru…

Yes the unpaid bills is the same, it's in the article. The problem with the courts is not, but it indeed happens.

Re: Lack of Entrepreneurial Culture Seen as Europe’s Biggest Obstacle

#97

Post by jbooth » Wed, Jun 08, 2011, 2:37 PM UTC

anamax wrote: post #94

jbooth wrote: post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, you played the old familiar canard of "I'm going to advocate for the government to do things less efficiently and then bitch about how inefficient they are". Par for the course for republicans. Personally, I'd be in favor of a simplified tax rate with a flat/progressive system that doesn't have an encyclopedia built into it. You might be in favor of a slightly different version of that non-encyclopedia but we'r…

> Yeah, you played the old familiar canard of "I'm going to advocate for the government to do things less efficiently and then bitch about how inefficient they are". No, I didn't. I wrote that the US govt should be more efficient. > btw, most people with under 100k of income in the US pay significantly more than 25%, closer to 40%. That's not true. See http://www.taxbrackets2011.com/ . Singles with AGIs between $83-1…

What? Of course SS and Medicare count. They're taxes. Europeans get pension plans too, and they have universal healthcare, and those services are included in the taxes that europeans pay.

You just argued "If I take the tax rate, and subtract 15%, I get 28%". That's ridiculous.

And, nobody in SS is subsidized by anyone -- those who max out don't pay any more beyond the max.

Re: Lack of Entrepreneurial Culture Seen as Europe’s Biggest Obstacle

#98

Post by anamax » Wed, Jun 08, 2011, 9:10 PM UTC

jbooth wrote: post #97

anamax wrote: post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Yeah, you played the old familiar canard of "I'm going to advocate for the government to do things less efficiently and then bitch about how inefficient they are". No, I didn't. I wrote that the US govt should be more efficient. > btw, most people with under 100k of income in the US pay significantly more than 25%, closer to 40%. That's not true. See http://www.taxbrackets2011.com/ . Singles with AGIs between $83-1…

What? Of course SS and Medicare count. They're taxes. Europeans get pension plans too, and they have universal healthcare, and those services are included in the taxes that europeans pay. You just argued "If I take the tax rate, and subtract 15%, I get 28%". That's ridiculous. And, nobody in SS is subsidized by anyone -- those who max out don't pay any more beyond the max.

> What? Of course SS and Medicare count. They're taxes.

I pay the City of San Jose for garbage services - is that a tax? Of course not.

SS isn't a tax because the benefits are (roughly) in proportion to what you pay?

> And, nobody in SS is subsidized by anyone -- those who max out don't pay any more beyond the max.

Do you really misunderstand this or are you just being annoying?

For low-income/low-contribution folks, the ROI for their SS "contributions" is positive. The ROI for high-income/high-contribution folks is negative. The positive return for the low-income folks is the money that the high-income folks lose.

On the off-chance that you think that SS problems can be solved by removing the cap, I'll explain why SS advocates introduced it. They wanted a system that had popular support and didn't encourage organized opposition. For popular support, they wanted to cap payouts. To avoid organized opposition, they wanted roughly proportional payouts.

If you want uncapped contributions, do you want uncapped payouts? If so, you get to explain why Ross Perot gets $300k/year. If not, you get to defend a program that is a significant tax on folks who are very good at fighting taxes.

Re: Lack of Entrepreneurial Culture Seen as Europe’s Biggest Obstacle

#99

Post by jbooth » Wed, Jun 08, 2011, 9:38 PM UTC

anamax wrote: post #98

jbooth wrote: post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What? Of course SS and Medicare count. They're taxes. Europeans get pension plans too, and they have universal healthcare, and those services are included in the taxes that europeans pay. You just argued "If I take the tax rate, and subtract 15%, I get 28%". That's ridiculous. And, nobody in SS is subsidized by anyone -- those who max out don't pay any more beyond the max.

> What? Of course SS and Medicare count. They're taxes. I pay the City of San Jose for garbage services - is that a tax? Of course not. SS isn't a tax because the benefits are (roughly) in proportion to what you pay? > And, nobody in SS is subsidized by anyone -- those who max out don't pay any more beyond the max. Do you really misunderstand this or are you just being annoying? For low-income/low-contribution folks,…

Ok, well go do some accounting on the dutch government, figure what % of their tax take goes to pensions and medical stuff, deduct that from their tax take and you can get back to me with an apples-to-apples comparison. Since those aren't really taxes.

I didn't say anything about uncapping SS. And I know my history, thanks.