This is great, congrats. While I was waiting for this though, I ended up learning emacs, org-mode, and org-roam. Not sure if I wanna change now. Emacs can do all of this already, right?
Launch HN: Athens Research (YC W21) – Open-Source Roam Research
71–80 of 153 posts
Re: Launch HN: Athens Research (YC W21) – Open-Source Roam Research
#72A few alternatives in this space: org-roam https://www.orgroam.com/ tiddlyroam https://tiddlyroam.org/ Dendron https://dendron.so/ Foam https://foambubble.github.io/foam/ Remnote https://www.remnote.io/ Obsidian https://obsidian.md/ logseq https://logseq.com/ Not an expert with them at all. I've never had a desire to dig into all their complexity, but some are pretty passionate about it.
And a "few" more here https://www.notion.so/Artificial-Brain-Networked-with-linear... ;)
Re: Launch HN: Athens Research (YC W21) – Open-Source Roam Research
#73I use Roam, and I've had my eye on your project for many months now, so I'm super excited to see you come so far. I'm also passionate about privacy and having control over my data - IIRC the way Roam handles image uploads is by uploading the image to firebase and giving you a link that anyone can use to view your image, with no way to delete that image, so you just have to trust in the 'unlisted' nature of the link. Not a big fan of this.
One thing I think was missing when I last looked at Athens was a working high-fidelity import of a Roam EDN export - without this I can't see an easy way to migrate, and I'm guessing there are other Roam users in the same boat? I'm sure it'll come along, until then I'll sit tight in anticipation :)
Re: Launch HN: Athens Research (YC W21) – Open-Source Roam Research
#74> For maximum power, you want a true graph database. Do you have empirical validation of this claim? Anecdotally, Postgres has a pretty rich set of graph modeling features these days, and keeps getting more of them, and SQL databases are often operationally simpler than graph databases. Maybe this matters less in a client side app?
It's possible to model graphs in Postgres, but it's a lot more complex. This video compares two queries, one in SQL, and one in Datalog (the query language DataScript uses)[0]. We should probably model a knowledge graph with a graph database! SQL databases are indeed operationally simpler but that's because they have been around for much longer and are more battle-tested. [0]: https://youtu.be/tV4pHW_WOrY?t=1772
> We should probably model a knowledge graph with a graph database!
I realize this seems intuitive, but the relational model has proven itself to be surprisingly flexible in its ability to store multiple different data models efficiently. Similar arguments were made about the suitability of document stores to social networking websites ten years ago, and I think we know how that panned out.
> SQL databases are indeed operationally simpler but that's because they have been around for much longer and are more battle-tested.
I wouldn't discount the age and battle-testing, though. They're the first choice for data storage for many good reasons. Not least of which is the flexibility and power of the relational model.
It's clear that graph query languages are more expressive for graph databases. What's not clear to me is whether there's anything fundamental about that expressiveness, or whether it will eventually be replicated in SQL. Have you tried using recursive CTEs before?
Re: Launch HN: Athens Research (YC W21) – Open-Source Roam Research
#75Earlier quoted context omitted.
Searchability really suffers in paper systems.
Paper systems don't have to be "100% paper". All you need is the metadata from your notes. You can give each note a number and then add that number plus a couple tags and a short description to a spreadsheet. Alternatively, you can take a picture of the note and add that to your digital system. It's not how I currently do things, but it's infinitely better than a primitive digital system where you take notes and neve…
Paper systems also suffer from "never touch them again", and adding a digital index only provides superficial search ability.
I'm not saying paper systems don't have a place - people have put them to use for centuries after all. They do have very real limitations though, and to be really useful require more ongoing work than many people are willing to put in, especially if they grow to an appreciable size.
Re: Launch HN: Athens Research (YC W21) – Open-Source Roam Research
#76Y'all both are making great tools but consider giving a read-only view of the page when javascript is disabled. After disabling JS this gives me a blank white screen: https://athensresearch.github.io/athens/ Same thing when i tried it with roam.
Considering the page you linked is a javascript application, why would anyone expect to be able to use a Javascript application without Javascript?
Is it a "javascript application" or a "page with text that uses javascript for dynamic features"...
Re: Launch HN: Athens Research (YC W21) – Open-Source Roam Research
#77Earlier quoted context omitted.
Searchability really suffers in paper systems.
Paper systems don't have to be "100% paper". All you need is the metadata from your notes. You can give each note a number and then add that number plus a couple tags and a short description to a spreadsheet. Alternatively, you can take a picture of the note and add that to your digital system. It's not how I currently do things, but it's infinitely better than a primitive digital system where you take notes and neve…
Bullet Journals are perfect for that ( https://bulletjournal.com/pages/book ), I'm still using them for managing my personal life (ideas, goals, progress on stuff, daily journals, etc). Having knowledge base in digital format is better in many ways, but IMO nothing beats notebooks when it comes to solving problems and thinking.
Re: Launch HN: Athens Research (YC W21) – Open-Source Roam Research
#78This is amazing, the thing that scares me the most about Roam is that I wouldn't be able to export data. Also like Notion it gets extremely slow very quickly. Hope that this local first solution will make you avoid the performance problems those apps have
You can definitely export your data from Roam. Maybe not some types of data, such as images, but you can scrape that if you needed to. I can say this for certain as someone who's worked on open source import, export, and backup tools for roam. [1, 2]
Re: Launch HN: Athens Research (YC W21) – Open-Source Roam Research
#79I wonder if the quite extremely early/intense competition that Roam faced as soon as it was shared publicly will result in none of the competitors succeeding (at the very least as a viable for-profit company). It's possible that sometimes we have to let early ideas fully succeed to see how the market actually performs. Else one can end up in an arms-race situation that ultimately only leads to a tiny user base for ea…
I suppose that's a function of how large the market can be, and how badly it wants to consolidate. 1. Market: If the pie doesn't grow, you may be right. If, however, these become new platforms, with the majority of use cases and user value occurring in the future, then there's certainly room for many existing players to succeed, and for brand new players to. Most people don't even take notes. What if knowledge manage…
You're right on here, but don't underestimate the network effect of Extensions for Roam.
Re: Launch HN: Athens Research (YC W21) – Open-Source Roam Research
#80I use Roam, and I've had my eye on your project for many months now, so I'm super excited to see you come so far. I'm also passionate about privacy and having control over my data - IIRC the way Roam handles image uploads is by uploading the image to firebase and giving you a link that anyone can use to view your image, with no way to delete that image, so you just have to trust in the 'unlisted' nature of the link.…
EDN import is done, just want to improve performance in Athens as most Roam dbs are bigger. I know Roam users will have higher expectations :)