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Element Matrix Services Announces Element Home

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Re: Element Matrix Services Announces Element Home

#121

Post by herrweghw »

nightowl_games wrote: post #106
3np wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> You can just enjoy the fact you know you chose someone you trust (us!) with your data. That stood out to me as poorly phrased, as well. They're assuming I trust them. Even if I do/would have, it's a turn-off.

I agree completely. I thought the point of element and matrix was that I don't trust anyone, and that the messages are e2e encrypted. I guess maybe metadata is still accessible by Element?

Calling Matrix decentralized is a little misleading. If's a federated protocol that still relies on user-trusted "home servers". Currently the majority of folks use the `matrix.org` home server, but a number of other folks (like myself) operate their own home server.

This means if a user on the matrix.org server is talking to another user either on matrix.org or elsewhere, matrix.org (and the 'elsewhere' participant's server operator) will be able to determine who is talking to who.

Also of note is that e2ee is optional, which makes sense because Matrix isn't just a replacement for direct user to user or small private group messaging, but also large public groups, where message content is intentionally public, and e2ee just adds overhead.

Re: Element Matrix Services Announces Element Home

#122

Post by 40four »

This sounds cool for non-technical people, who don't have the skills to setup their own self hosted Synapse &/or Element server. Let's be real, for folks who don't frequent HN, that's just about everyone. Seems like a good option for them, and a good way for Matrix to generate income. Great news as far as I'm concerned!

Sounds like some are complaining about the price, but it seems more than fair to me. Heck, I host my own Synapse instance, but I might consider this in the future. Not that the maintenance is a problem, I don't think I've had to touch it since I set it up. But it might be worth it to not ever have to go in and do upgrades, or worry about something going wrong.

Re: Element Matrix Services Announces Element Home

#123

Post by crazypython »

miloignis wrote: post #119
crazypython wrote: post #97

I have one large concern with this. It's not a FLOSS service, it's SSaaS. Let me explain. While Matrix is open-source, Element Matrix hosting gives you no option to modify the source code, not letting you install add-ons or modifications. There's no way to say, "Hey, check out this cool chat patch, just install it on your homeserver!" With proprietary service, if you want a feature, all you can do is say, "Ugh, I wis…

It's a SaaS offering hosting for FOSS. If you want to be able to patch and change and manage the running homeserver, than you're just manually managing the homeserver, which would be self-hosting! Which is a great thing to do, but then there's no point in buying this service, just rent a VPS. The entire point of this service is that they do the management for you - if you would rather do the management yourself, you…

> The entire point of this service is that they do the management for you - if you would rather do the management yourself, you totally can.

I want them to manage it and also let me upload patches.

I want the setup, DNS, storage, hosting, all the sysadmin stuff... and still be able to patch the software. I want them to be able to `git pull` an update over my patches, and have it carry forward after updates.

I want the agency of FOSS but still pay for the management, simply put.

> It's a SaaS offering hosting for FOSS.

I can't modify the software, so it's not free software. If they provided some sort of "patch app store" or patch download, it would be free software.

Re: Element Matrix Services Announces Element Home

#124

Post by argvargc »

HolidayHuckle wrote: post #65
argvargc wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This genuinely makes no sense on Element's part. The exact same features are listed for the same price, on the feature comparison page - https://element.io/pricing - except Nickel has one extra. Why would anyone choose to have one less feature, all-else being apparently equal? Either the comparison page is wrong/missing something, or...?

Hi - I head up Element Matrix Services (EMS), so hopefully I can answer some of these questions for you. Element home is really aimed at helping to get less technical users up and running with their own home on Matrix as quickly and easily as possible. Under the hood Element Home servers and our smaller / Nickel products are pretty similar (similar resource allocations etc.). The main differences are in the setup pro…

Ok! Thanks for the detailed answer, that makes sense.

Maybe could the comparison page do with another point in Home's favour to this effect?

Re: Element Matrix Services Announces Element Home

#125

Post by crazypython »

HolidayHuckle wrote: post #101
crazypython wrote: post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What hosting provider are you using? AWS, GCP, and Azure are several times more expensive with the same performance as smaller providers, of which DigitalOcean provides the worst performance. (50% less) https://vpsbenchmarks.com

Currently we're using AWS (but we're hoping to become more cloud agnostic in the future). (I head up Element Matrix Services)

> Currently we're using AWS (but we're hoping to become more cloud agnostic in the future).

If you're not using Lightsail, you're overpaying. Look at this comparison: https://www.vpsbenchmarks.com/compare/ec2_vs_vultr

AWS bandwidth through anything but Lightsail is 1000 times more expensive. AWS servers are 3-5x more expensive. AWS isn't successful because it's good, it's successful because it has good marketing.

Look at OVH and Linode.

Is Element hiring, by the way? Here's a look at my skills, if you're interested: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26305569

Re: Element Matrix Services Announces Element Home

#126

Post by remram »

herrweghw wrote: post #121
nightowl_games wrote: post #106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree completely. I thought the point of element and matrix was that I don't trust anyone, and that the messages are e2e encrypted. I guess maybe metadata is still accessible by Element?

Calling Matrix decentralized is a little misleading. If's a federated protocol that still relies on user-trusted "home servers". Currently the majority of folks use the `matrix.org` home server, but a number of other folks (like myself) operate their own home server. This means if a user on the matrix.org server is talking to another user either on matrix.org or elsewhere, matrix.org (and the 'elsewhere' participant'…

As I understand it, the consensus is to call multi-server systems "federated" and peer-to-peer systems "decentralized". So I agree that Matrix should be called the former and not the later.

Re: Element Matrix Services Announces Element Home

#127

Post by miloignis »

crazypython wrote: post #123
miloignis wrote: post #119

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's a SaaS offering hosting for FOSS. If you want to be able to patch and change and manage the running homeserver, than you're just manually managing the homeserver, which would be self-hosting! Which is a great thing to do, but then there's no point in buying this service, just rent a VPS. The entire point of this service is that they do the management for you - if you would rather do the management yourself, you…

> The entire point of this service is that they do the management for you - if you would rather do the management yourself, you totally can. I want them to manage it and also let me upload patches. I want the setup, DNS, storage, hosting, all the sysadmin stuff... and still be able to patch the software. I want them to be able to `git pull` an update over my patches, and have it carry forward after updates. I want th…

Interesting - do you know of any service that does this? I'm curious as to how exactly you want it to work. Rereading your comment, I agree DNS and backups make sense, but upgrading the application itself still seems somewhat fraught. If your patch doesn't apply on an update, what should happen? Don't upgrade and send you an email? Do they upgrade the rest of the system it runs on? Do you want to be able to run other programs on the server as well, and if so, how would distro updates work?

I think we disagree pretty fundamentally, but you've got me curious now about how your idea would work, and I'd like to hear more.

Re: Element Matrix Services Announces Element Home

#128

Post by remram »

HolidayHuckle wrote: post #67
anotherboffin wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I also think the explanation could use a bit of work. If I have more than 5 users, do I need to switch to Nickel? Get another Home plan?

Up to 5 Monthly Active Users are included in your subscription. After that you can add additional users at an additional $2 per user per month. It's worth noting that the Monthly Active bit can be quite important. What this means is that you're not charged for the number of users registered on your server, but the number who are actively using the server. Users are only considered as "active" and counting towards the…

This is so much more expensive than Slack. If you were comparable you might have a sell with E2EE but this seems way off.

[edit: seems like I failed to parse Slack's pricing page. Slack is expensive as hell. Carry on]

Re: Element Matrix Services Announces Element Home

#129

Post by gorgonzolachz »

HolidayHuckle wrote: post #67
anotherboffin wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I also think the explanation could use a bit of work. If I have more than 5 users, do I need to switch to Nickel? Get another Home plan?

Up to 5 Monthly Active Users are included in your subscription. After that you can add additional users at an additional $2 per user per month. It's worth noting that the Monthly Active bit can be quite important. What this means is that you're not charged for the number of users registered on your server, but the number who are actively using the server. Users are only considered as "active" and counting towards the…

That's smart - I know I've had a couple of folks interested enough to download the app, but not interested enough to use it on a daily basis.

If I may, I'd like to push a little deeper on this. Why the single-digit user limit at that price? Doubling or quadrupling the users, or halving the price, would make it a no-brainer of an option to point people to if they don't want to go through the trouble of setting up their own server. As it stands, the pricing feels restrictive to the point where I would feel punished for growing my server (I'd instead tell someone to get their own matrix.org address, at which point it sounds like we could just use Discord/Signal/Slack?). The extra financial burden (these are my family and friends, so I would never ask them to chip in) would actually incentivize me to keep my server as small as possible, which is the antithesis of what the goal of a hosted service should be.

As I write this, I'm realizing that there's no real utility here for anyone technical enough to warm to Matrix/Element's strengths. We can talk about the everyman who's not on HN all we want, but my hunch is that those people would rather just use Signal or Discord based on their use-case - no confusing concepts like "homeservers" and "federation". With a user limit and the current pricing model, every use-case (from a short tryout to a long-term personal homserver) is better served either by the free matrix.org model or by a self-hosted solution.

Re: Element Matrix Services Announces Element Home

#130

Post by nerdponx »

adidalal wrote: post #89

For those interested in self-hosting the home server, I would recommend https://github.com/spantaleev/matrix-docker-ansible-deploy - the documentation is fantastic and it’s very well maintained.

I'm personally waiting for Dendrite. Apparently the beta is usable now, setting it up has been on my to-do list.
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