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Lyra audio codec enables high-quality voice calls at 3 kbps bitrate

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Re: Lyra audio codec enables high-quality voice calls at 3 kbps bitrate

#161
post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Between miserable latency, not-so-great fidelity, and the fecklessness of phone companies in the face of the robocall epidemic, I have come to hate phone calls. I'm rooting for something to replace phone communications. Any chance that Matrix can do better on any of those fronts? Especially on fidelity and latency since they're germane to the high-level subject of this discussion.

One conspiracy theory is that tech companies have lobbied to prevent real action on robo-calls, in order to get people like you to hate calls and migrate to online services.

That seems unlikely. The robocall phenomena don't really exists in France and many people still dislike calling

Re: Lyra audio codec enables high-quality voice calls at 3 kbps bitrate

#162
post #79

I've just taken a minute to confirm what my ears told me in Audacity. Please have a look at this screenshot: https://cloudflare-ipfs.com/ipfs/Qma41RMzieQ6ZGdGem9rLxnxEL1... The Lyra version is clearly much louder. This is a serious problem and it borders on being reasonable to call it "cheating". It's well known in the audio biz that if you ask people to compare two experiences, and one of them is a bit louder than t…

If it sounds better who cares what methods are used?

Re: Lyra audio codec enables high-quality voice calls at 3 kbps bitrate

#163
post #118

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You haven't had "analog" phone calls for decades. Your analog line was converted to a digital signal at the central office or concentrator (ugly green boxes). From the CO to a tandem through the core network your call was digitally switched to the endpoint where it was converted back to analog for the callee's phone.

However, those were circuit-switched, not packet-switched. (At least for a while.)

I should have been clearer, the OP doesn't want "analog" service but PSTN (TWM switched) service. Unfortunately that is dying out as carriers are moving to all IP core networks. As customers have moved away from fixed landline service it ends up costing more per customer to keep the PSTN running. The last mile equipment is the same for TWM or IP switching but they can dump that directly into an IP network rather than maintain a hierarchy of COs/tandems/toll switches with dedicated links between them.

Re: Lyra audio codec enables high-quality voice calls at 3 kbps bitrate

#164

Why in the world do we need 3 kbps audio for voice? It's so hard to hear people speaking over mobile phones. Why don't we use 32-64 kbps 48 kHz for all voice communication? GSM CSD offers 9-14 kbps down/up, 3G offers 384 kbps, and EDGE offers 473 kbps. Why limit to 3 kbps?

For situations with low bandwidth. Communication in space or far outside of civilization.

Re: Lyra audio codec enables high-quality voice calls at 3 kbps bitrate

#165

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One conspiracy theory is that tech companies have lobbied to prevent real action on robo-calls, in order to get people like you to hate calls and migrate to online services.

That seems unlikely. The robocall phenomena don't really exists in France and many people still dislike calling

It definitely exists in France. I still receive a robo call every single day on my land-line, liste rouge/Robinson or not. I have stopped bothering reporting them. The prevalence of "who called me/is it important" services makes me think it is not an uncommon problem.

Re: Lyra audio codec enables high-quality voice calls at 3 kbps bitrate

#166

Why in the world do we need 3 kbps audio for voice? It's so hard to hear people speaking over mobile phones. Why don't we use 32-64 kbps 48 kHz for all voice communication? GSM CSD offers 9-14 kbps down/up, 3G offers 384 kbps, and EDGE offers 473 kbps. Why limit to 3 kbps?

There are many reasons.

- Not everyone has such good connectivity.

- So you can handle many streams at once, like in a big meeting, without a server mixing them.

- So you can have decent quality video on the same limited connection.

- So you can archive large amounts of speech.

- To advance the state of the art.

- etc.

Re: Lyra audio codec enables high-quality voice calls at 3 kbps bitrate

#167
post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It covers it, but it's not exactly brilliant. 200ms is the point at which conversation breaks down. If half that budget has gone on the codec, not much has to happen on the wire for it to be noticeable.

If your 200ms number is round trip, 90ms + 90ms is more than half that budget.

The pipeline is basically:

- stream your voice through an encoder: X ms

- send encoded packages over the network: 20-100ms latency (fiber vs mobile phone)

- potential decoding + encoding (if receiver does not support the senders codec, e.g., a landline phone using old codec)

- stream packages through a decoder: Y ms

If you are aiming for 60ms audio latency, which is what I would consider "good", then in the best scenario (20ms network latency; both using same codec) the latency of the encoder+decoder has to be max 40ms (e.g. 20ms for encoder, and 20ms for decoder).

It should be obvious that a decoder that does not meet the 20 ms budget, but takes 90 ms instead which is > 3x the budget, can produce better audio (ideally 3-4x better).

Latency wise, everything below 60 ms is really good, 60ms is good, and the 60-200ms range goes from good to unusable. That is, 200ms, which is what this new codec would hit under ideal conditions, has a latency that humans consider "unusable" because it is too high to be able to have a fluent conversation.

For me, personally, if latency is higher than 120ms, I really don't care about how good a codec "sounds". I use a phone to talk to people, and if we start speaking over each other, cutting each other, etc. because latency is too high, then the function of the phone is gone.

Its like having a super nice car that cannot drive. Sure its nice, but when I want to use a car, I actually want to drive with it somewhere. If it cannot drive anywhere, then it is not very useful to me.

Re: Lyra audio codec enables high-quality voice calls at 3 kbps bitrate

#169

Earlier quoted context omitted.

From that I would naively expect that the performance of the codec could be very language dependent. It would be interesting to see how well it does in other languages.

But that is the thing, what if it isn't a codec? What if it is simply a set of model parameters, a generative model, and a stream of fiducial bits which trigger the model? We have already seen some of this with generative models that let you generate voices that sound like speaker data used to train the model right? What if, instead of say "i-frames" (or what ever their equivalent would be in an audio codec) you sent…

I think he's saying that if it is in fact a generative model, we will see significant differences when we try different languages.

Re: Lyra audio codec enables high-quality voice calls at 3 kbps bitrate

#170
post #69
post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is a fantastic question. I agree with you that we're slowing boiling the frog (and the frog is ourselves) in accepting more and more latency in our real-time communications. I think the answer for Lyra is that latency is a concern, but maybe at this stage not as much of a concern as it could be. I'm only guessing, though based on this [0]: > The basic architecture of the Lyra codec is quite simple. Features, or…

Google Chrome has a latency of 20ms to just repeat back audio on the local device . That is, with no networking, and no processing, it takes 20ms for any information to from microphone back out to speakers.

The default Windows Audio Engine buffer size is 10ms, so that will undoubtedly be one buffer delay in and one buffer delay out.

https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/windows-hardware/drivers/au...

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