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Peer-to-Peer Databases for the Decentralized Web

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Re: Peer-to-Peer Databases for the Decentralized Web

#31

Post by t3rr0r »

encryptluks2 wrote: post #27
BelenusMordred wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Would you call torrents decentralised?

To an extent, although many times you still rely on a centralized tracker and dedicated seeds. Unless you belong to a private tracker where users are forced to maintain certain ratios to continue using a service, then in most cases a torrent will end up like an IPFS site without any pins. If IPFS provided the ability to track pins from users of a site like private trackers, and provide rewards or some incentive then…

you're describing an architecture similar to a project I'm working on using orbitdb/ipfslog - it's not quite ready for sharing/using but there's more information here: https://www.reddit.com/r/musichoarder/comments/lrqx7m/record...

Re: Peer-to-Peer Databases for the Decentralized Web

#32

Post by t3rr0r »

opendomain wrote: post #6

This project may be dead There has been no activity in over a year,and the sponsoring company has no presence in several years.

It's def not ded, it's been like this for as long as I remember but it just keeps slowly chugging along. I continually find myself coming back to it, especially as IPFS matures more.

Re: Peer-to-Peer Databases for the Decentralized Web

#33

Post by t3rr0r »

encryptluks2 wrote: post #4

I don't see how people consider this and IPFS decentralized. You still need peers to subscribe and pin, and services like Pinata aren't cheap and still centralized. Is there an example of websites that would continue to run indefinitely if there wasn't a centralization of services with IPFS? I just don't think it is likely unless you start distributing your app that bundles IPFS, so that your users end up hosting it…

I share your viewpoint and frustration with "decentralized" apps. But as you said it is indeed possible by bundling your app with IPFS and using something like orbitdb/ipfslog for structuring data. I linked this in my other comment, but take a look at this proof of concept: https://www.reddit.com/r/musichoarder/comments/lrqx7m/record...

At this point the major challenges are with UX, especially for users who are not accustomed to self-hosting. I think we have the technologies and ideas to overcome the rest.

Re: Peer-to-Peer Databases for the Decentralized Web

#34

Post by calibas »

encryptluks2 wrote: post #8
aaomidi wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What do you think decentralized means? It means that hosting it isn't the responsibility of a single party. If I put something online, and people think it's interesting and pin it. Even if I go down, the pinned content remains up. Decentralized doesn't magically solve hosting availability. It just removes responsibility from a single party.

I would say there are very few IPFS sites where hosting doesn't still end up being the primary responsibility of a single party. That was the point I was trying to make. If you have to pay someone else to pin it and keep giving them funds then it is still your responsibility. If you have a website that you want to scale and load fast for all your users on IPFS then it will still end up being your responsibility. Ther…

You're speaking from actual experience, aren't you? I tried out IPFS and came to the same conclusion myself. Content has to be kept alive or it disappears forever, and keeping it alive requires some kind of investment.

I like IPFS, I want it to succeed, but HN has these romantic ideas about IPFS that don't quite match reality, and you get downvoted for being honest sometimes. Not acknowledging the limits of IPFS are part of what holds it back...

Re: Peer-to-Peer Databases for the Decentralized Web

#35

Post by hosh »

pm wrote: post #30
hosh wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you reddit, r/selfhosted and r/homelab are a great place to start. I really like the sandstorm.io platform, though it is not currently supported on an rpi. It has the potential as a platform that “grandma” can use. There is a project called HomelabOS. It reminds me a bit of Homebrew.

Cheers. I remember hearing SandStorm (the company) went under a couple years ago, and was curious but hadn't explored it in depth. I've been paying attention to CollapseOS as well, though it's a little more apocalyptic in nature. The eventual aim is to be able to provision a set of servers from a thumb drive without Internet (if that's even possible), but I haven't had much time to get far.

I'll check out CollapseOS!

The sandstorm community is still going. The app developers are interested, but the platform itself has not received much love. For my own goals, (1) getting ARM support (which includes customizing seccomp for the ARM; patching the sandstorm app package format; and getting a good developer story), and (2) enabling IPFS.

A kind of practical user-facing goal for integrating IPFS would be to decentralize the sandstorm app store.

What I am finding is that the design goals for sandstorm looks like it was originally intended to be deployed in the cloud, whereas I'd like to see individuals and communities empowered to run sandstorm for their local community.

Re: Peer-to-Peer Databases for the Decentralized Web

#36

Post by calibas »

aaomidi wrote: post #14
encryptluks2 wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would say there are very few IPFS sites where hosting doesn't still end up being the primary responsibility of a single party. That was the point I was trying to make. If you have to pay someone else to pin it and keep giving them funds then it is still your responsibility. If you have a website that you want to scale and load fast for all your users on IPFS then it will still end up being your responsibility. Ther…

There is no technology possible that removes said responsibility. This is how peer to peer systems work. Your criticism is something that no peer to peer system claims to solve.

He said that IPFS hosting is the "primary responsibility of a single party". The whole idea behind peer to peer is to avoid precisely that.

Re: Peer-to-Peer Databases for the Decentralized Web

#37

Post by ocdtrekkie »

hosh wrote: post #35
pm wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Cheers. I remember hearing SandStorm (the company) went under a couple years ago, and was curious but hadn't explored it in depth. I've been paying attention to CollapseOS as well, though it's a little more apocalyptic in nature. The eventual aim is to be able to provision a set of servers from a thumb drive without Internet (if that's even possible), but I haven't had much time to get far.

I'll check out CollapseOS! The sandstorm community is still going. The app developers are interested, but the platform itself has not received much love. For my own goals, (1) getting ARM support (which includes customizing seccomp for the ARM; patching the sandstorm app package format; and getting a good developer story), and (2) enabling IPFS. A kind of practical user-facing goal for integrating IPFS would be to de…

Honestly, the biggest pain point around adding ARM support is that it'll be a pain to create ARM-compatible packages for all the apps. I definitely think the largest unanswered question in ARM support for Sandstorm.io is "how do we make it convenient for app developers to release packages for multiple architectures?"

That being said, I'd be super excited at the possible expansion of the community ARM support would bring.

By the way, regarding seccomp and the platform receiving love, there's actually a new experimental seccomp filter which operates as a whitelist instead of a blacklist: https://github.com/sandstorm-io/sandstorm/pull/3502

Re: Peer-to-Peer Databases for the Decentralized Web

#38

Post by FeepingCreature »

calibas wrote: post #36
aaomidi wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is no technology possible that removes said responsibility. This is how peer to peer systems work. Your criticism is something that no peer to peer system claims to solve.

He said that IPFS hosting is the "primary responsibility of a single party". The whole idea behind peer to peer is to avoid precisely that.

Not really, if you want something to be perpetually available in any p2p network you need to ensure that you're still hosting it. That goes for torrents, ed2k, freenet, and ipfs too.

Re: Peer-to-Peer Databases for the Decentralized Web

#39

Post by FeepingCreature »

9000 wrote: post #19
aaomidi wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is no technology possible that removes said responsibility. This is how peer to peer systems work. Your criticism is something that no peer to peer system claims to solve.

Actually, I recommend you check out Freenet [0], a project that's 20 years old. In fact, the Wikipedia page explicitly states: > Information flow in Freenet is different from networks like eMule or BitTorrent; in Freenet: > 1. A user wishing to share a file or update a freesite "inserts" the file "to the network" > 2. After "insertion" is finished, the publishing node is free to shut down, because the file is stored…

Of course, in Freenet, if a file is not requested often it will quickly fall off the network due to user churn.

Re: Peer-to-Peer Databases for the Decentralized Web

#40

Post by pm »

hosh wrote: post #35
pm wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Cheers. I remember hearing SandStorm (the company) went under a couple years ago, and was curious but hadn't explored it in depth. I've been paying attention to CollapseOS as well, though it's a little more apocalyptic in nature. The eventual aim is to be able to provision a set of servers from a thumb drive without Internet (if that's even possible), but I haven't had much time to get far.

I'll check out CollapseOS! The sandstorm community is still going. The app developers are interested, but the platform itself has not received much love. For my own goals, (1) getting ARM support (which includes customizing seccomp for the ARM; patching the sandstorm app package format; and getting a good developer story), and (2) enabling IPFS. A kind of practical user-facing goal for integrating IPFS would be to de…

There are multiple HN stories on CollapseOS; it was worth reading for the comments.
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