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On the Experience of Being Poor-Ish, for People Who Aren't

residentcontrarian.substack.com

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Re: On the Experience of Being Poor-Ish, for People Who Aren't

#771
I’m a bit late to the comment party and didn’t have a chance to read any but pertaining to this article. I’m sorry but I read halfway through and did a search for the word “food” simply that and didn’t find it. I can’t take this author seriously as someone who truly understands.

Re: On the Experience of Being Poor-Ish, for People Who Aren't

#772
post #464

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I genuinely don't know if even "can" is applicable to allpoor people in this context. A person who has a similar background but ended up with a chronic illness preventing them from working... that dream of working for 200k/yr is impossible.

We're not even talking about "that dream of working for 200k/yr" but the dream of living a decent life

Yeah I think it's still nearly impossible if you're too disabled to work. You can't even get married without losing what meager benefits you have.

Re: On the Experience of Being Poor-Ish, for People Who Aren't

#773

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I thought about this too when I was reading Crime and Punishment recently. The protagonist is described as very poor, but they still have a room in a house, and their room even includes house meals. Similarly with other poor characters; sometimes their space was just a sectioned off area of a bigger room (maybe like a floor-ceiling cubical). But hey, that's gotta be better than sleeping under a freeway for most peopl…

The thing is, in the US the "sectioned off area of a bigger room" model of housing has been legislated and regulated out of existence. Similar for the other option the very poor (read: serfs) had in the Russia of the period Crime and Punishment is set in: just build something yourself to the best of your ability. The result was not always great, and there are all sorts of reasons (starting with fire-spreading externa…

It feels like we do our best to make poverty “invisible”. I often think of how much land would be taken up by slums. The US still is reeling from the idea of the “projects” in LBJs war on poverty - mainstream politicians literally won’t even use the word “poor” anymore. We still don’t have any sort of coherent policy for where to put poor people, especially the homeless.

Re: On the Experience of Being Poor-Ish, for People Who Aren't

#774

> You are also more or less forced to learn to do mechanic work. You are forced to do all your own work, unless the landlord will help. I am no longer poor and broke, but I spent roughly my first three decades there. I recall a colleague saying they were redoing their walk way; it blew my mind they paid someone to do it — the concept of paying someone to do something for you is not something I experienced growing up.…

The article touches on this with “don’t by a spatula from Craigslist”. No matter your income, what you’re really doing is trading time for goods and services, the money is just a token. When “doing your own work”, be mindful of the opportunity cost of your time. What’s your rate versus the handyman’s rate? If you fix the porch, are you less able to pick up that overtime shift? This needs to be genuine trade off, not…

> When “doing your own work”, be mindful of the opportunity cost of your time. What’s your rate versus the handyman’s rate? If you fix the porch, are you less able to pick up that overtime shift?

There's more to it than just the money though, although that's certainly a big factor[0].

There's having control over your environment, being self-reliant, shaping it the way you want it shaped. I don't know about other people but that's really good for my mental health - particularly at the moment.

Other benefits:

- You don't have to go into it with a fully realised vision upfront. I can't do that for interior design - I have to iterate towards something decent.

- Inevitably along the way you encounter unanticipated problems and complexities (much like software development). If you've paid someone a shit-ton of money to sort out your house your only options are to throw more money at the problem or compromise in a way you may not like. If you're doing the work you are generally able to consider more options.

- You don't have to compromise in the way you would if you got somebody to do it for you. If I get somebody to design my bathroom for me then, because I don't and can't know the answers to all the questions up-front, at the very least I'm going to have to live with some of their answers. Those answers might start to wear on me after I've lived with the new room for a time.

- If I screw something up myself or decide I'd prefer it to be different I have zero qualms about undoing my own work, partly because I know I can redo it in the way I want, but also because there's less risk of sunk cost fallacy clouding my thinking.

- On the odd piece of work for which I will need a tradesperson they're not going to be able to take me for a ride.

Working on your own house is a real confidence building exercise that I'd recommend to anyone, and especially those who feel like they have no practical skills, for reasons that go far beyond the financial.

[0] In theory I could afford contractors; in practice I'd have to make sacrifices in other areas where I'd rather not make sacrifices to do it.

Re: On the Experience of Being Poor-Ish, for People Who Aren't

#775
post #688
post #367

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What in gods name could they be spending $70k a year on?! They hire a private teacher for every student?

I don't know MIT but my first reaction is that number probably does include room & board, which in a college town might be $20k a year. $50k a year in tuition is still not a bargain, of course.

Not at all, considering my tuition was €1500, with the total my university received for me (with government supplement) being around €5000 / year.

I really cannot imagine what they’d do with that kind of money. Besides build super fancy buildings of course.

Re: On the Experience of Being Poor-Ish, for People Who Aren't

#776
I grew up with my sisters in poverty. I didn't eat at a restaurant until I was 14 and paid for it myself. I started baking crackers, biscuits and pancakes that my younger sisters and I would eat for dinner with government peanut butter or cheese when I was 11. Having no utilities was a regular occurrence. Christmas was socks, underwear and a winter coat. Shoes were a touchy subject and I would have to have pretty big holes before they would get replaced. School hot lunch and food drives were awkward.

I decided what I wanted out of life in my mid-twenties and pursued it and now in my 40's I am doing better than I could have ever imagined. Everyone I know who was poor and wanted to better themselves was able to get out of poverty. All 4 of my sisters are middle class or better. Thats 5/5 that succeeded. All my friends across the states I had lived are homeowners and seem happy. All the people I met who bitched and didn't do anything to better themselves are still poor or dead.

I didn't get lucky and neither did my sisters and friends. We each made personal decisions and planned our way out of poverty. It didn't happen over night. A lot of set backs happen and everything is hard. Transportation and unforeseen expenses are the largest hurdles and access to credit is also difficult because of the length of time it takes to repair.

Re: On the Experience of Being Poor-Ish, for People Who Aren't

#777

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I once looked at a flat/apartment in a converted house here in the UK where the oven door got stuck on the wall opposite when you tried to open it.

Sounds like a feature if you don't want people sticking their head in.

Haha I'm now quite disappointed the estate agent didn't try to advertise it as a safety feature.

I did once see a house listed as having "conveniant access to the motorway for commuting". It was actually directly underneath a bridge of the motorway :|

Re: On the Experience of Being Poor-Ish, for People Who Aren't

#778

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I thought about this too when I was reading Crime and Punishment recently. The protagonist is described as very poor, but they still have a room in a house, and their room even includes house meals. Similarly with other poor characters; sometimes their space was just a sectioned off area of a bigger room (maybe like a floor-ceiling cubical). But hey, that's gotta be better than sleeping under a freeway for most peopl…

The thing is, in the US the "sectioned off area of a bigger room" model of housing has been legislated and regulated out of existence. Similar for the other option the very poor (read: serfs) had in the Russia of the period Crime and Punishment is set in: just build something yourself to the best of your ability. The result was not always great, and there are all sorts of reasons (starting with fire-spreading externa…

Honestly, I think the role of stuff like this is exaggerated... if you look at real examples. Base level building cost per sqm at the low end is pretty low but..

1 - IRL, especially in urban markets... rental markets tend to have a pattern where not far below median prices, quality falls off a cliff. For every dollar you save, you lose a lot: sqm, finish, location, etc. By about 0.5X median prices, there is often nothing. Conversely, in suburban & rural markets, quality per dollar tends to explode somewhere not far above median.

2 - This is usually less true for owner-occupied or other types of housing.

I think the end of tenement-type housing has as much to do with culture as it has to do with pure economics or building norms. Most of those, originally, had live in owner-operators. It was a way to make housewifing into a business. Apartments didn't really exist yet.

Re: On the Experience of Being Poor-Ish, for People Who Aren't

#779

Earlier quoted context omitted.

1 rich person saving his money so his 3 children never have to work is bad for the economy. It's better the 1 rich person is forced to consume that in his lifetime. By doing so that money is redistributed back to the economy, and his 3 kids are also productive. In scenario 1 only 1 out 4 people work. In scenario 2, 4 out of 4 people work. Also - it's hypocritical for 'pull yourself by your bootstraps' for children bo…

Its hard for me to imagine being so full of envy that you would like to see the children of rich people stripped of everything they have. Equality means nothing if you achieve it by pulling everyone down to the lowest level. > 1 rich person saving his money so his 3 children never have to work is bad for the economy. "Your rights are bad for the economy, we are taking everything from you. Back to work, pleb".

"Back"?

(Sorry about the cheap comment - I couldn't resist)

Re: On the Experience of Being Poor-Ish, for People Who Aren't

#780
post #473

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> save up enough money for college Depends on the college. MIT says to expect to spend ~ $70K/year. $100K * 20 years = 2 million. Two kids * 4 years = $560K. That's a little over 1/4 (before taxes). So yes, it would have been difficult to save up that much money. I have enough to send them both to a public in-state school debt-free, but not an elite private school.

My kids are getting to college age and its worth considering that MIT has 11376 students whereas google claims there are 19.6 million college students in the USA at this time. So if distributed purely randomly, in the "everyone MUST go to college" USA, something like 99.942% of kids will not be paying MIT tuition. Another thing to consider is if you're investing $280K in the MIT brand, do they offer any bachelors deg…

I get your point, but the bursars for those other colleges didn't seem to get the memo that they aren't MIT.

The thing is, MIT's tuition is fairly typical for a private university. If anything, MIT (and other elite private universities) offer better discounts than lower-ranked schools.

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