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Why Bitcoin Will Fail As A Currency

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Re: Why Bitcoin Will Fail As A Currency

#81
post #80
post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Throw a non-negotiable 1-year imprisonment into whatever penalty they enact for using bitcoin. Then imprison the thousand most prolific users (business that accept it, people who publicly exchange it, etc.), and continue doing sweeps of anyone who admits to using bitcoin for the next few years. Suddenly, the only people who are willing to use bitcoin are those who are already using it for illegal things. Keep in mind…

I'm sorry but this is silly. What you are suggesting has been already tried in prohibition of alcohol, in war on drugs and now in a more civilized way in a "war on car downloaders". The main outcome was that black markets flourished. If people want what Bitcoin provides, they will get it in one way or another.

> If people want what Bitcoin provides.

That's the key point. There is a huge demand for alcohol, for drugs, and for cheap/free content. In the first two cases, this means that there is real profit to be had in selling it, and the illegality means that prices can be hugely inflated due to risk. For free content - "car downloaders" is a really nice way to describe it - I haven't yet figured out the economic motives, but it seems to be a mixture of selling ads (for the people running the sites), sharing/giving back to the community (especially on private, invitation-only trackers), and just because of how easy it is.

Is it possible to make money or karma off of bitcoins in a similar way? Well, you can sell them. If you have bitcoins, you can make a profit of them that way - you can sell them for above value, or charge for the service as well as the coins. You can also buy them, hoping that the price increases, which ends up as selling them.

So, answer this: if bitcoins were made illegal, what monetary incentive would there be to use them? Their price certainly wouldn't go up - it would plummet as all the legitimate traders tried to get out.

Re: Why Bitcoin Will Fail As A Currency

#82
post #79
post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Even in the very article at hand, it points out that there is a standard economic criticism applicable to deflating currencies that BitCoin may be vulnerable to. Yes, the armchair deflationary spiral theory . With the exception of labor theory of value, I do not know of any other economic theory whose premises are a) so thoroughly laughable b) lacking any kind empirical evidence. In an attempt to reduce the noise/sig…

That's your persuasive counterargument? "That theory sucks"? I don't deny the standard case is controversial (which is also, BTW, not the same as "lacking in any evidence"; there's plenty of evidence , it's just that what it means is still debated), when discussing deflation spirals of a relatively small size, but when you're talking about a currency that will deflate by orders of magnitude , and that necessarily mus…

That's your persuasive counterargument? "That theory sucks"?

Thank you, you've put it more succinctly than I did. As for "plenty of debated evidence" it just means no evidence. Evidence should be evident, I'd say.

when you're talking about a currency that will deflate by orders of magnitude

How about you (or TAOTFA) have a look at a) Bitcoin Monitor b) The "Buying" section on bitcoin forums c) this:

*You may be right, but I have some anecdotal evidence to the contrary. Since the $10+ spike in bitcoin prices we've sold considerably more shirts in our store.

http://forum.bitcoin.org/index.php?topic=13087.msg181094#msg...

Re: Why Bitcoin Will Fail As A Currency

#84
The assumption of the article is a paradox. The author first assumes that the total bitcoin market will be worth 1 trillion. Then he claims people will hoard coins due to their promising future value.

In reality, there is a chance the bitcoin market will reach 1 trillion. There is also a chance it will crash. Most likely it will fluctuate. If I were told there was a 100% chance my 1.5 coins I have mined today would be worth hundreds of thousands of dollars, then of course I would hoard. But since I have no such guarantee, I am more likely to cash out when I think the market has peaked and/or the fad has faded.

There are die hards who will hoard and have hoarded from day one. It's the same with all investments. I have a friend who bought his new car with 11 ounces of gold - He walked in, set it down on the table, sign some paperwork and walked away with a new car. But I think the average bitcoin user won't be able to pass up the idea of "I didn't really have to do anything for this, so why not buy a pizza with a few (micro)bitcoins."

Re: Why Bitcoin Will Fail As A Currency

#85
post #72
post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Throw a non-negotiable 1-year imprisonment into whatever penalty they enact for using bitcoin. Then imprison the thousand most prolific users (business that accept it, people who publicly exchange it, etc.), and continue doing sweeps of anyone who admits to using bitcoin for the next few years. Suddenly, the only people who are willing to use bitcoin are those who are already using it for illegal things. Keep in mind…

Exactly. Add to that a propaganda stream, "Only Evil du jour will use Bitcoin. Are you Evil? No! Then you won't use Bitcoin either!"

I heard Hitler uses Bitcoins.

Re: Why Bitcoin Will Fail As A Currency

#86

The article makes a series of well known criticisms, but there are a few issues with it. 1. If a BTC were to be worth $2M, you'd simply trade microcoins which would be worth $2. Or even nanocoins for micropayments. 2. Bitcoin's quasi-anonymous nature will be highly desirable to many people, including very large criminal organizations who'll definitely be moving those coins. 3. A large number of early adopters joined…

Every single criticism of Bitcoin I've seen is based on the assumption that it will fail because it's not a fiat-based currency. They list Bitcoin's features as the reasons it will fail. They talk about the past 200 years of central banking and seem to forget the thousands of years of human economy before governmental central banking, when money was actually backed by a scarce resource.

"They talk about the past 200 years of central banking and seem to forget the thousands of years of human economy before governmental central banking, when money was actually backed by a scarce resource."

Please check your facts. For the majority of human history, money was not backed by a scarce resource, but by government power.

For example, there was no guarantee in the Roman empire of exchanging coins to a certain amount of gold or silver, and the value of the coins in the Roman empire was largely unrelated to their material value.

To make that more precise, the reason that precious metals were used in coins was to prevent forgeries. If C is the cost to produce a coin or piece of paper money, then its value will (with very few degeneracies) always be in the range between C and f*C, where f > 1 is a factor that depends on the level of anti-forgery technology, and on the efficiency of law enforcement for tracking down forgers.

After all, no government in their right mind would produce coins whose value is lower than or equal to the cost to produce them - that would just be a nonsensical work. Therefore, the value is larger than C.

However, the higher the ratio between value and cost of production, the more attractive the coin or paper money becomes as a target for forgers. So raising the cost C of production makes it less attractive to forgers.

Interesting side note: If you actually look at the (unfortunately scarce) data concerning inflation in the Roman empire, you will see that as inflation pushes the real value of coins down, and the nominal cost of production of the coins up, the government eventually reacted by minting new coins with adjusted production costs (by reducing the amount of precious metals in the coins, or by creating new coins with the same amount of precious metals, but higher nominal value).

It is quite unfortunate that folklore has the causality between minting coins and inflation exactly the wrong way around.

Re: Why Bitcoin Will Fail As A Currency

#87
post #71

All these bitcoin articles are getting more than old. Here are some major issues I've been seeing with all of them: 1) Assigning some fixed dollar amount to coins for the purpose of demonstrations in the article. This will never happen, it's in flux, and it's a scarce resource. Does gold or any other precious metal stay at a fixed resource, does anyone hoarding gold make it any less valuable? 2) As mentioned above, b…

Commodity backed currencies are actually the exception, not the rule. I've written about this here: http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2632658

Re: Why Bitcoin Will Fail As A Currency

#88
post #80
post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Throw a non-negotiable 1-year imprisonment into whatever penalty they enact for using bitcoin. Then imprison the thousand most prolific users (business that accept it, people who publicly exchange it, etc.), and continue doing sweeps of anyone who admits to using bitcoin for the next few years. Suddenly, the only people who are willing to use bitcoin are those who are already using it for illegal things. Keep in mind…

I'm sorry but this is silly. What you are suggesting has been already tried in prohibition of alcohol, in war on drugs and now in a more civilized way in a "war on car downloaders". The main outcome was that black markets flourished. If people want what Bitcoin provides, they will get it in one way or another.

Hate to burst your bubble but comparing demand for alcohol during prohibition and demand for quasi-anonymous online value transfers is what most folks would call an obvious strawman. What percentage of the population of the US do you think has even heard of bitcoin, much less understand the underlying concepts?

Everyone I know that's even aware of (much less involved with) bitcoin atm falls under the following demographic: young technophiles. A small minority of these are buying up more GPU's and giggling about the "free money" they're making.

It's a mistake to confuse speculation on the part of some early adopters with actual broad public demand. Expect popular demand for bitcoin about the time that credit cards stop working on Amazon.com.

In the mean time the IRS has every reason to stomp on this before it gets any bigger and all the excuses legislators need have been laid out on a silver platter.

Re: Why Bitcoin Will Fail As A Currency

#89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It'll still thrive in all the countries that don't legislate against it, and in the black markets of those which do.

That's one possible outcome. Another being bitcoin traffic provokes government-mandated deep packet inspection/filtering or other further intrusions into online privacy.

It sounds like that might spark the first real "cyber wars." I'm not sure most governments would survive it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7g0pi4J8auQ

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