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On the Experience of Being Poor-Ish, for People Who Aren't

residentcontrarian.substack.com

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Re: On the Experience of Being Poor-Ish, for People Who Aren't

#751
> Take no guilt from this article - It’s informational, not a call to arms.

Why isn’t it a call to arms? Why should anybody have to live like that? I’ve done it. I was busting my arse to get by. Got out basically because of luck. Nobody should live in poverty.

I also find the “has your water been cut off” interesting. Due to the safety/health implications, cutting off water is illegal where I live. You can be restricted for a few specific reasons, but they can’t just turn your water off. Jesus. Absolutely atrocious that that happens to people. Australia is FAR from perfect but at least medical bills don’t bankrupt people and depriving people of utilities generally isn’t allowed.

...Why isn’t this post a call to arms, again?

Re: On the Experience of Being Poor-Ish, for People Who Aren't

#752
post #328

This is a great write-up, and as someone who spent time being poor-ish, it really resonated. What I realized from my own life experience: the US sawed the bottom rungs off the ladder in the 1950s when it suburbanized. There is no affordable housing or transportation in 95% of the North American land area, and virtually every societal problem we deal with either stems from this or is made worse by it. Then the healthc…

I noticed this after spending time in developing countries. They are set up much better for being poor. Trivial example: you can go into a pharmacy and buy two aspirin. Some people can't afford 100 at a time, and don't need that many anyway. Or rent: you can get a place to live for only $60/month. There's no running water, but it's clean and dry and it has a lock on the door. The cheapest place you can find in the US…

A lot of cities in developing countries are built around cities/villages of the past. Today, they are redeveloping those, so they have infrastructural problems of the kind where they struggle to rip something out and redesign (unless you are China).

America got a clean slate in 1700s. And completely fucked it up over the years with massive suburbanization. America could have been Europe++ or Japan++ but instead we are a economic meat grinder with soulless suburbia being the pinnacle of a dream life.

Re: On the Experience of Being Poor-Ish, for People Who Aren't

#753

Earlier quoted context omitted.

OPs context does not touch on safety nets at all, so where are you getting this from? Seems like such thinking is a symptom of our current political BS. Having experienced some pretty crappy times, would you honestly think I’d oppose NOT subjecting others to the same misery?! Of course not, no one should experience these and everyone deserves basic dignity.

It’s just the social context in the US right now and for better or worse, this is often a very US-centric forum. “I pulled myself up by my bootstraps and you can too” is very strongly associated with the political view that people should receive minimal/no help from the government. It’s a talking point by that side and one that is heavily parodied/mocked by the other side. You can’t use a phrase like that without man…

That’s a very unfortunate and cruel situation.

For what it’s worth, I don’t actually know of an implemented system that is sufficient in preventing/mitigating enough of the poverty. (EDIT: if we had basic income, that would probably do it, without means testing/etc) US situation is unbelievable in that regard - not only do we not have a safety net to speak of, our medical care system is a fast track to poverty and bankruptcy.

Re: On the Experience of Being Poor-Ish, for People Who Aren't

#754

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The empty houses in UK and especially London is a well-known and researched problem, they are prime real estate where the owner decided that renting them out is not worth the trouble, they are just land-banking and waiting for their 'investment' to grow. Many (of those) owners don't even live in UK. We had a 'homeless' guy build his house in a forest, but ofcourse the government showed up to remove him. Many people w…

> By growing inequality and pushing people into poverty I am sick of hearing about poverty as a growing problem. It simply isn't. Median income, and the lowest income quintile, have grown steadily. The percent of Americans living in poverty has been declining. Median wealth is still lower than it was before the 2008 crisis, but it was growing strongly before and has grown strongly since the Great Recession. All trend…

Homelessness is obviously increasing though it’s difficult to measure with precision. Homelessness is worse than poverty and homeless aren’t even counted in official poverty calculations. The census can’t sample them.

Re: On the Experience of Being Poor-Ish, for People Who Aren't

#755

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How about a reality hat: the world does not offer everyone equal chances. You live in a country surrounded by fences and border patrol exactly to keep those that were less lucky from trying to get some of that luck. Even when born in the country, there are better and worse schools, better and worse social infrastructure, a billion different glass ceilings according to color, gender, age, accent or faith. Your comment…

I saw nothing of the sort in chmod600's comment. They even led with "When wearing your policymaking hat, I agree that you should consider what people actually do." Policymakers in Washington and poor immigrants on the streets need different advice, because they control different things . If you are President or Congressperson in the U.S.A, then by all means: let's have a more humane immigration system, and universal…

Yes, thank you. An important element of my argument is to focus on what's in your control.

It's not exclusively about immigrants. In fact, immigrants are less likely to be caught up in notions of fairness because they probably thought to themselves before they came something like "this is going to suck and be unfair, but it will be worth it for my children and grandchildren". So they just make the best of it and compare with the country they came from, not some ideal utopia.

The ability to vote is some tiny amount of control, but democracy is a blunt instrument to actually affect your life in a positive way. Policies and their implementation rarely live up to expectations even when enacted, so people waiting for them just get more discouraged. And a lot of policies that might sound good have bad unintended consequences, which is why there are endless arguments.

I don't mean to give up on policy, just to recognize that it's not going to be the salvation you're waiting for. Sensibly spend some effort to understand issues and vote for good representatives, but don't hold your breath. Focus on ordinary good advice and encouragement that work regardless of the policies.

Most of the goodness in the world is not some well-crafted policy, but ordinary people doing ordinary good things. Be positive and encouraging and give credit when people do those good things, don't be dismissive because you think people will misinterpret the story and craft bad policy out of it.

The way we build on success as a society is when people share their success stories. If every time someone shares their success, the response is instantly about how privileged or lucky they are, then our culture is sick. We should listen to and support those stories.

Re: On the Experience of Being Poor-Ish, for People Who Aren't

#756

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When wearing your policymaking hat, I agree that you should consider what people actually do (which is not always wise) rather than just what they should do. But when actually struggling (or perhaps even when comfortable), you should forget about policy and fairness and just make the best decisions you can and keep trying to do the right thing, and that gives you or your children or grandchildren the best chance to m…

How about a reality hat: the world does not offer everyone equal chances. You live in a country surrounded by fences and border patrol exactly to keep those that were less lucky from trying to get some of that luck. Even when born in the country, there are better and worse schools, better and worse social infrastructure, a billion different glass ceilings according to color, gender, age, accent or faith. Your comment…

Think of it another way:

What advice would you offer a young poor student looking to get out of poverty

A) The cards are stacked against you, but your best chance is to work hard, get good grades, keep a clean criminal record, go to college, and get a good job.

B) You are the victim of a broken system and this system needs to be fixed.

Both are true, but only one of these messages is actionable and relevant for the student.

Yes, the system us unfair, but people can and do rise out of poverty every day. In fact, most children born into poverty make it out of poverty (66% according to this PEW paper [1])

https://www.pewtrusts.org/~/media/legacy/uploadedfiles/pcs_a...

Re: On the Experience of Being Poor-Ish, for People Who Aren't

#757
post #686

Earlier quoted context omitted.

is it crazy? If you can get terms on low enough interest rate and long enough time horizon (aka, you're rich) it's not a bad choice because you are (safely) gambling that your earnings potential will go up over time, in both real and nominal terms, letting the cost of the debt decrease over time. Moreover, the opportunity cost of that cash not being invested and used for purchases is real.

You assume people are investing that money. What I see is people having a lifestyle that is only possible with lended money. Those are expenses and not investments and put you in a position where a minor change in your expected income growth will deeply affect your lifestyle.

> if you make 200.000/yr

Ok. Let's rephrase this. If you are in that category, you should take the loan on the lambo and invest whatever the principal WOULD have been and come out ahead instead of paying for the lambo in cash in one shot. Also goes for less frivolous purchases.

All I'm saying is your suggestion is a poor protip for the wealthy, and a better protip for the middle class e.g.

Also note that economists are mostly in the wealthy category and a good chunk of our socioeconomic woes come from economic policymakers (often implicitly [0]) normalizing harmless or good advice for the wealthy onto other stratas of society.

[0] e.g. "inflation is good because it decreases the real value of debt and lower classes benefit from that"

Re: On the Experience of Being Poor-Ish, for People Who Aren't

#758
post #497

This is a great write-up, and as someone who spent time being poor-ish, it really resonated. What I realized from my own life experience: the US sawed the bottom rungs off the ladder in the 1950s when it suburbanized. There is no affordable housing or transportation in 95% of the North American land area, and virtually every societal problem we deal with either stems from this or is made worse by it. Then the healthc…

>There is no affordable housing or transportation in 95% of the North American land area This just isn't true. The majority of the US has cheap housing. The person who wrote the article lives in Pheonix where you can get houses for 200k or under. Like this perfectly good 3 bed 2 br for 200k: https://www.redfin.com/AZ/Phoenix/8520-W-Palm-Ln-85037/unit-... Housing costs are out of control in a handful of places in the…

Most of the US is rural with no housing, therefore no affordable housing by definition. In most small towns you're even more car-dependent than in a city, and there are no jobs.

As I think about it, if we define affordable as "costing under $500/mo all-in" (since that would be a little over a third of one month's work at minimum wage), it would surprise me if even 1 in 20 homes met that criteria.

Re: On the Experience of Being Poor-Ish, for People Who Aren't

#759
post #7

>while it’s normal to put down a month or two worth of rent as a security deposit, it’s much less normal to get it back This looks insane to an Australian. I have moved house 4 times in the past 5 years and I have never not got all of my bond back. Some states here have a rule that the bond money is held by the state so that the landowner doesn't just take that money for themselves. How can the poor ever break the cy…

American here. I've always gotten my deposit back, but more often then not it involves work and knowledge on my part. Most tenets (even my wealthy peers) don't really know there rights and just write off the deposits as a cost of moving, so most landlords assume they can get away with stealing them.

I have always gotten payed after sending a letter to the effect of "I moved on XXX date. With interest (as required by the lease and state law) you owe me my security deposit of $YYY within 45 days or I am entitled to sue for 3x that amount and attorneys fees."

There are also some procedural rules around how to deduct from security deposits (among other things, you must send an itemized list by certified mail to the last known address of the former tenet within 45 days of the end of the lease). I'm pretty sure most landlords don't even follow that for otherwise valid deductions

Re: On the Experience of Being Poor-Ish, for People Who Aren't

#760

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The world has enough resources to feed, clothe, and house everyone. this is kind of reductive claim. in one sense, it's trivially true that the earth has more raw resources than humans can consume even over the course of centuries. AFAIK it's also true that, under the current system of organization, the global economy produces enough finished goods to feed, clothe, and house everyone (though people often bring up l…

Just like how that increase in marginal tax rate prevents anyone from climbing into the upper tax brackets (and why we never had millionaires back when the top bracket was > 90%), eh? Of course people can keep the surplus. Some of it. But we're a far, far cry from the point where people will stop working when only getting a percentage of their labor's worth (or their parent's labor's worth, as is often the case).

> and why we never had millionaires back when the top bracket was > 90%

Over 20% of the money in circulation in the US was printed last year. i.e. the pot is much bigger now. Also, while tax rates were high back then, loopholes were proportionately larger!

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