Sir Kazuo Ishiguro warns of young authors self-censoring out of 'fear' • Hacker News Board

Re: Sir Kazuo Ishiguro warns of young authors self-censoring out of 'fear'

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Post by dash2 » Mon, Mar 01, 2021, 8:04 PM UTC

whimsicalism wrote: post #215

ghaff wrote: post #146

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's also a difference between saying something stupid and having some people telling you to knock it off. And posting it or having it posted to Twitter with a possible consequence like a bunch of people emailing your employer demanding you be fired. Which they probably will because it's easier that way if you really did say something you shouldn't have.

If you had a gay character in a sitcom in the 70s-80s you would similarly get a bunch of people calling your employer. There's totally a difference, but you honestly think that this is a new thing that never used to happen?

> If you had a gay character in a sitcom in the 70s-80s you would similarly get a bunch of people calling your employer.

Apparently not: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_comedy_television_seri...

Re: Sir Kazuo Ishiguro warns of young authors self-censoring out of 'fear'

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Post by solosoyokaze » Mon, Mar 01, 2021, 8:05 PM UTC

sudosysgen wrote: post #306

dragonwriter wrote: post #286

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's important to understand that while the Right in America uses “liberal” to encompass everything to their left, the American Left (in line with much of the world outside the US, which did so longer) tends to use it specifically for a center-to-center-right pro-capitalist position roughly coextensive with neoliberalism; the (decreasingly, but still) dominant centrist wing of the Democratic Party is “liberal”, but n…

Indeed. Liberalism is the ideology according to which negative rights prime over everything, the rights to property are the most important, and freedom of association is paramount. Leftism emerged as sociology critiqued the idealist liberal notions for their ignorance of real-word effects due to material reality on the actual freedom and oppressive social structures that strict classical liberalism creates.

That seems accurate. Also, neo-liberalism emerged from economics with an imperialism backdrop. It's the philosophy of globalism.

Re: Sir Kazuo Ishiguro warns of young authors self-censoring out of 'fear'

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Post by zimpenfish » Mon, Mar 01, 2021, 8:05 PM UTC

refenestrator wrote: post #229

whimsicalism wrote: post #188

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Nobody gives a shit when Uber classifies their drivers as independent contractors to stiff them on benefits, I think quite a few people gave a shit? I think you're attacking a straw man, it is perfectly possible to have opinions on small stylistic issues (like master vs main) while also thinking that there are fundamental economic things that need to change.

Uber's referendum won in California. I'm sure that people 'care', and I suppose I'm straw-manning those people.. I'm not straw-manning the system. Time and again, challenges to monetary order aren't permitted but puritanical word-propriety is encouraged. It's an energy outlet.

> Uber's referendum won in California.

Their appeal lost in the UK just last week.

Re: Sir Kazuo Ishiguro warns of young authors self-censoring out of 'fear'

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Post by mywittyname » Mon, Mar 01, 2021, 8:05 PM UTC

Isn't censorship a badge of honor among artists?

Lots of writers throughout history had their works censored or banned. This is not a new phenomenon nor did it every really stop. In fact, most great works were, or still are, considered controversial and the controversy is often more discussed than the actual work.

Re: Sir Kazuo Ishiguro warns of young authors self-censoring out of 'fear'

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Post by bryanlarsen » Mon, Mar 01, 2021, 8:07 PM UTC

jerf wrote: post #196

refenestrator wrote: post #175

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What's interesting is that heretical liberals have the most to fear in this environment. MAGA people can't be cancelled, and it's a badge of honor if attempted. But well-meaning unorthodox liberals really have to watch themselves.

Yes, one of the worst and most dangerous places to be is just outside the orthodoxy. This is not a comment about 2021; it is a historical pattern. Whether or not it's worse than being directly opposed to the orthodoxy is something I'd say changes between times and places, but there have definitely been times where its more dangerous to be just outside then full-on opposed. Those who are neither directly opposed, nor…

This is so old it's in the bible, or at least 1 Timothy 5:8 has been taken out of context to say it. "He has denied the faith, and is worse than the unbeliever."

Re: Sir Kazuo Ishiguro warns of young authors self-censoring out of 'fear'

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Post by mywittyname » Mon, Mar 01, 2021, 8:09 PM UTC

bachmeier wrote: post #117

Surprising how much press "cancel culture" gets these days as if it's a new thing or as if it's a new thing being pushed on society by the left . We've always had cancel culture. Some might remember the Dixie Chicks. How about the Rachael Ray ad that Dunkin Donuts pulled merely because it looked like an Arab scarf? Jerry Falwell came to prominence entirely based on his pushing of cancel culture. When I lived in North…

The Dixie Chicks are a great example. They vanished from the mainstream basically overnight. People still hate them to this day and probably don't even really remember what they said.

Re: Sir Kazuo Ishiguro warns of young authors self-censoring out of 'fear'

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Post by IAmWorried » Mon, Mar 01, 2021, 8:11 PM UTC

inglor_cz wrote: post #280

IAmWorried wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think it's limited to just what you say in public. Videos and audio recordings have a way of triggering human emotions that writing simply does not. To tell you the truth, I live in perpetual fear that some acquaintance could secretly record me saying some non-PC thing in private, and post it to Twitter to get me cancelled. I have deleted all social media to try to achieve "out of sight, out of mind" but I st…

Deep fakes are coming and with it a tsunami of outrageous videos that have no connection to reality. People will learn to distrust video evidence.

I think this could extend to major public figures, but offers no recourse to the average joe who doesn't have 100 hours of talking footage online. Deepfakes require a lot of data to produce. Anyone who doesn't have this much data, you could reliably assume the content is real.

Re: Sir Kazuo Ishiguro warns of young authors self-censoring out of 'fear'

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Post by imwillofficial » Mon, Mar 01, 2021, 8:12 PM UTC

manux wrote: post #236

imwillofficial wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am going to charitably interpret your comment as ignorance of the topic as opposed to malicious muddying of the already confusing waters. Self censorship is indeed driven by the judgement portion of the brain, however, what is being mourned here is the constantly shifting and uncertain ground on which our current society puts its taboos. What was once a socially acceptable position to have in polite society, is no…

> it's mutating at a breakneck pace I agree that it's changing faster than a century ago, but I don't think "breakneck pace" is a fair qualifier. Lots of people comfortably adapt to new norms and change how they behave without significant effort. > the two minutes hate outrage machine. This phenomenon existed long before the internet. Heck, I'd bet long before writing was invented. Gossip in large social groups doesn…

Agreed, you are technically correct, but you are missing the meaning. Most people did not self censor much due to fear. They held socially acceptable opinions and not much of what they thought should be kept bottled up. Now? Who the hell knows what to say and if you’ll be hunted for it later. Support feminism? Some now see you as transphobic. Support trans causes? Now some feminists say you’re raising up men and oppressing women. Don’t care about either causes? Well now you’re a monster!

Don’t worry though, much like the weather in Virginia, survive till tomorrow and it’ll change.

Also, it literally is mutating at a breakneck pace, not only compared with historic norms of idea change rates, but also even compared to people’s ability to keep up. It’s insanity.

Re: Sir Kazuo Ishiguro warns of young authors self-censoring out of 'fear'

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Post by dragonwriter » Mon, Mar 01, 2021, 8:12 PM UTC

slg wrote: post #157

lainga wrote: post #144

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, peoples' expectations have changed in America since we declared independence from Japan.

I am curious what era of US history do you think was free of this stuff?

For right-leaning, racist, sexist White male elites? Most of it.

Which is why that's where most of the whining that this is a new and dangerous phenomenon is coming from.

Heck, the government hyperfocus on rooting out Communism began almost immediately after the suggestion of turning the same apparatus against the KKK was rebuffed because of that organizations loyalty and patriotism.

Re: Sir Kazuo Ishiguro warns of young authors self-censoring out of 'fear'

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Post by throwaway894345 » Mon, Mar 01, 2021, 8:14 PM UTC

hannasanarion wrote: post #199

throwaway894345 wrote: post #148

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> There is no era of Western history where unpopular opinions were more acceptable than today. In the past, dissenting opinions voiced loudly were often punished by blacklisting or excommunication or prison or death. Granted, but what's the logic here? We ought to content ourselves with regression so long as no one is being imprisoned or killed? We want to progress, not regress . We don't want a conformist society, w…

The idea that "ideas compete and the best rise to the top" is completely utopian. Such a "free marketplace of ideas" has never existed and cannot exist, because attention is a limited resource, bias exists, and not all ideas are equally valid. The argument exists as a cover for constant relitigating of ideas that by all rational measures have lost in the "marketplace of ideas" time and time again. If every single ast…

I think you fundamentally misunderstand free speech and the "marketplace of ideas" metaphor. It's precisely because of free speech that we can collectively condemn geocentrism, racism, holocaust-denial, authoritarianism, etc. Indeed, authoritarianism in general and Nazism, Stalinism, Maoism, etc in particular always starts with speech restrictions. The idea that free speech and authoritarianism are bed fellows doesn't make sense; these are mutually exclusive.

Moreover, "marketplace of ideas" is a metaphor for what happens in a society that has a high degree of free speech: the best most valid ideas rise to the top. You argue that the marketplace metaphor doesn't work because bias exists and because ideas vary in validity, but that doesn't make sense--these facts are the very mechanism by which the marketplace metaphor works: in speech-tolerant societies, a diversity of ideas compete and the best, most valid ideas rise to the top irrespective of bias.